Liber Mundi

[Lillie]

Well, maybe you are right.

But C says (and we are playing C's game here, a game of guess the system) that 8 by one and 14 by another.
because the pairs need to be split.

Now, he is not clear about that.

He cannot mean that each pair had to be done one card by one artist and one by the other because the fool and the magician were done by the same.

He might mean (as I assumed) that all 8 by one artist would be used in the geomantic pairs (although as you point out, that does cause a contradiction with what he said the star being 'empty') or it could mean any number of the 8 were used, not necessarily all of them.

Now, thinking on that option, I'll stick with the sun for via, judgement for carcer and the star for caput draconis. I don't go for that empty thing...

But the two fortunas...
Minor would be the wheel.
Major would be.... hmm... What's left??? You're right, the tower, if it ever existed, is just a stupid idea.

I'll go for... the pope. On the assumption that back in them days if you got the popes blessing it was great good fortune to you!

[Lillie]

OK.

Last guess.

Caput Draconis isn't the star. It's the moon.
I'm pretty sure of that.

Right idea, slightly worng expression of it.

Astrology.
Caput draconis, the moons north node.
Where it crosses the elliptic, or something.

Yay!

[Bernice]

Having guessed them all, Lillie gets a *STAR*.

Has this deepened your understanding of those cards now Lillie?

Bee

[Lillie]

It made me think about socks...

No.

Come on!

I don't even know if I'm right or not

And anyway, I was just going on the sock theory most of the time.

The world and the sun are people holding things up.

Lovers and judgement are both winged things in the sky and people under...

Of course they can both be justified.
The sun lights the way,
to go to prison you need to be judged...

But mostly it was just the similarity of the images.

I'm waiting to find out if I got them right or not

["C"]

...concerning the card known as the WHEEL of FORTUNE you might have a closer look on the peoples Heads and what is coming out of their mouths to get a possible hint what is depicted here...
And they are NOT caught on it - do you see any Ropes or something like that ?
They cling to it - why ?
They tell you with their own words...

***Albus, because she is white, and you previously hinted at holiness and knowing scripture.***

In what way is she WHITE - she was a Heretic in those Days ( an female Ancestor of the concerned Families was known for that )
Knowing scripture - thats very good - because she is depicted with a book - but let me assure you - its NOT the Bible - and the geomantic Character is known for his ( her ) passion for BOOKS...

***Why she should be paired with "the Red", I don't know, unless I go into alchemy or chess, and then it is only the colours, and not the figures on the cards, that matter. A Thelemite might quote "the knowledge of me is the knowledge of death", and there are also classical philosophical statements to the effect that all of philosophy is the knowledge of death, but that seems far-fetched.***

First RED and WHITE make a pair in the 16...
We have confirmed "DEATH" as being RED and "the POPESS" as WHITE...
...and the depiction gives a hint by colouring them both very sallow and there is even a slight resemblance in their Headdress...
Or let me put it this way - what would be the need for "DEATH" to carry such a thing on his head if not to make some resemblance with "the POPESS" clear ?

***Temperance, because you said to look at the socks of Hercules/Fortitude, and find his twin. She was the only one left to be both a woman and have red socks.***

Again - You should be more specific about things like that - BOTH - PUER and PUELLA wear shirts and socks with the same golden pattern on the sleeves and the upper end of the socks - such details are important or people like
Lillie will make jokes about that ( nevertheless she made some good points... )

***Hercules/Fortitude***

...is the wrong guess - STRENGTH - as I said - depicts ORION or as you will OSIRIS but that doesnt matter by now...

***Temperance moderates Force, one might say - thereby creating Justice, the balance between Mercy and Punishment.***

Like I said to Bernice in an astrological context - You shouldnt allow yourself to be carried away by your systems - you might get lost...

For now have only trust in your eyes...

C

["C"]

...No - You are THINKING around the problem without LOOKING at it...

Lillie ( ill come to her soon ) has got VIA right with "the SUN" - hopefully she will tell us why - and than You can blush with shame...

C

["C"]

...seems to be nice to have You here...

...but it would also be nice if You told me and Ross for example WHY You think "the SUN" to be VIA ?

Of course thats right - but WHY - if Youve read through the posts of this Thread You would have seen that there are some people who believe only in evidence - and they are RIGHT - and thats what they shall get...

So please - tell...

Of course "the ( last ) "JUDGEMENT" for CARCER is wrong...

C

[Lillie]

Judgement wrong.... boo!

I've already said how I got the sun for Via.

It was the sock thing.
I thought right, if the socks are the clue for them, and I need to find a card to go with the world, then what card has elements in common with the world.

I looked at the sun and there was someone holding up the sun, just like the world was being held up on its card, and then, when I thought about it it made sense.

The world and the sun go together. One goes round the other (which one depends on the century you live in) and the sun can be seen to be lighting the way (via).

Bingo...

Didn't work for judgement though...

*sigh*

["C"]

...my system went down while I was in the middle of it...

What I wanted to say was...
Maybe You could come up with a Master List for us all - give it a try...

***And caput draconis would be the star.***

No - if You are searching for the clear opposite of "the DEVIL" - which Bernice made clear to us - could only be the CAUDA DRACONIS - what would be THAT - considering ALL the given hints ?
Or let me put it this way - what - in a common sense - is thought to be the clear OPPOSITE of "the DEVIL" and where is the Counterpart of "the DEVIL" depicted on the Atu ?

***Which would leave (surely) the moon and the tower for the fortunas.***

...sorry...

C

["C"]

...as an advice to all participants of this Thread...

Even when I address you personally it would be useful to read the WHOLE THREAD and what was said in ALL the other posts - concerning "the TOWER" and "the DEVIL" I made my point clear - I think it was to Bernice because she first was ashamed of identifying "the DEVIL" as CAUDA DRACONIS - and apologized to You Ross for doing so - and I assured her not to be afraid of her new eyes...

***Well, there are 14 cards by one artist, and 6 by a second, but since the Devil can be included, I wonder also about the Tower - so you may be right, it might be 8 + (6+2). But C has excluded the Star as "empty", so I am assuming Moon and Sun are also empty, but I may be wrong.***

So "the TOWER" and "the DEVIL" are obviously included - even when they are not present ( in the flesh ) - I told you why this is the case...
"the STAR" is empty only for now - as long we are searching for the 16...
The exact same thing refers to "the MOON" - You are right... This card - as you see - is depicted in the very same manner - except ONE exception - The Girl ( or Woman ) shown there is with her left hand holding some kind of rope witch seems to be tied around her waist as a belt - but she seems to be well dressed - so this thing seems to be a little out of place...
On the higher levels of understanding T²a this gives you a clear hint with which Hebrew Letter this Atu is associated...
But this is is not the time or the place to talk about that...

Whats up with "the SUN" Lillie told us already...

C