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Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Judging a Chart - Overview of the main features

Let's have a look at a chart:

I've attached a chart for Bill Clinton, the former US President. I'm going to make some very general comments on it's features. Perhaps later on we'll do a more in depth analysis but for the moment we will concentrate on forming an impression.

I did think of doing two charts, one a whole sign approach and one a 'quadrant' approach to the houses. However Clinton's chart is a little unusual in that all his house cusps are in different signs, even using a quadrant approach. So apart from an odd comment we will keep to the quadrant houses. I've used Regiomontanus cusps because I use those in virtually all my work. I'm not saying they are any better than Placidus, merely that I like them LOL

The first point of note is that this is a diurnal (Day) chart. This can be seen at a glance as the Sun is above the horizon (houses 12 to 7 inclusive)

Looking at the Ascendant first we see that it's in Libra, making the Ascendant ruler Venus. A quick glance shows us that Venus is also in Libra, in the first house and less than 6 degrees away. So we have a highly dignified Venus by both Essential and Accidental dignity. Just as a reminder, Essential Dignity comes from sign placement, Accidental dignity comes from it's chart position.

There are two other planets in the first house, both in Libra. Mars which is within a degree of the Ascendant and Jupiter which is well away from the Ascendant. Of these two Mars is going to have far more effect. Mars is in the sign of it's detriment and is also peregrine (no other essential dignity) This is a weak Mars and therefore a potentially troublesome Mars. All three planets are likely to have some effect on character and physical attributes. Mars therefore could be more troublesome on a health front than in regard to character and you should remember the body as well as the mind LOL.

Mars has accidental dignity because it is in the first and conjunct the Ascendant. It is also a little faster than average which is also good but is occidental (it will appear in the sky after the Sun has set). Jupiter is also quite slow which is an Accidental debility and it's distance from the Ascendant weakens what would be normally a very good placement.

Mars and Venus are both nocturnal planets so their placement below the horizon in this diurnal chart is good (though Mars will shortly rise). Jupiter is a diurnal planet and therefore would be happier above the horizon in this chart.

No other planet is situated below the horizon - so there's nothing about Clinton that is hidden from view.

The next thing of note is the position of the Sun. This is in Leo it's own sign and in a day chart the Sun also rules the Fire Triplicity. So it is also in its own Triplicity. It's positioned in a diurnal sign so it is in 'Hayz' an Arabic expression meaning that it's in a diurnal chart, above the horizon and in a diurnal sign - a powerful position for a diurnal planet. The Sun is in the eleventh House - not angular but succedent. The eleventh is also the house of the machinery of government - parliaments, ministers, cabinets, etc. Perhaps not a kingly placement but one tha indicates a very strong political standing.

Mercury and Saturn are both in conjunction in Leo. This is the only instance of placements that would be different in a Whole Sign approach. Here they are in the tenth rather than the eleventh. For Saturn Leo is the sign of it's detriment BUT it is in it's own terms and its own Face, so it has some dignity. Saturn is also a diurnal planet - so being placed in a diurnal sign, in a diurnal chart and above the horizon make it also in Hayz. Saturn has real power and here in the tenth, the House of the king. Saturn is also Almuten (planet with most dignity) at the degree of the Ascendant (Saturn is in exaltation in Libra, plus has Triplicity rulership of the air Signs in a diurnal chart). The Sun is also sextiled by Jupiter the Greater Benefic, it might not add much in this chart but it adds something positive.

Mercury is in its own terms in Leo, so it too has dignity. It is weakened a little by being oriental (Saturn conversely is strengthened). With a conjunction the outcome may be favourable or unfavourable, depending on whether the planets get on (are 'friends' or 'enemies'). Most modern Astrologers would not put Mercury and Saturn as natural friends. BUT Saturn and Mercury both rule Air Signs - Aquarius and Gemini, AND both rule Earth signs (Capricorn and Virgo). They can be natural allies. So the outcome here is likely to be fortunate. Bill Clinton is likely to have a good forensic mind, which can be put to political use. This is even stronger because both Mercury and Saturn sextile the Ascendant.

That leave us the Moon. The Moon is placed in Taurus, the sign of its exaltation. A very good zodiacal placement. However it is in the Eighth House, an unfortunate placement. The Moon is also third quarter, so it is waning or 'decreasing in light' which is accidentally weak. And it casts a square to the Sun. Furthermore, the Moon is ruler of the Tenth House. If Clinton makes it to be 'King' it will either be with difficulty or he will struggle to retain the throne.

A couple of final observations about Mars and Venus. Mars is also the ruler of the Seventh - it is the significator of his wife. Mars is also the ruler of his Second House, the house of money and wealth. If Clinton suffers in his public life it may be because of issues relating to his wife or money matters (or both together). The early classical Astrologer Maternus says that in a diurnal chart Mars in the Ascendant makes men 'bold clever, emotional, wanderers, unstable in every way'.

Venus also rules the eighth - so Clinton may be the author of his own 'death'. Venus therefore rules the Moon. Venus and the Moon are friends so the Moon might not be quite as unfortunate as it's position suggests.

A final quote from Maternus - Venus in the Ascendant in a diurnal chart makes men 'oversexed, unchaste, of ill repute'.

We've done a general overview there. Notice that the concentration is on planets and their placements in the chart. Signs modify the power of the planets to act. They do not impart some character traits of their own.

This is by no means a full reading for Clinton, issues of temperament, character and mind have been mentioned but not investigated. We haven't looked at areas of his life in any depth at all but we have formed some impressions. Again if you have any comments or questions relating to this overview please post.
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Top   #11
firecatpickles's Avatar
firecatpickles  firecatpickles is offline
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Minderwiz, I too am following the thread(s)! It is very interesting.

Thank you and keep it up.
Top   #12
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Thanks Fire Cat,

My aim is to show the approach and if people are reading and enjoying then that's just what I want. I don't expect many (or even any) informed questions but it's nice to know it's being followed.

If you do see something that you (or anyone else) want to question, please feel do, no matter how 'silly' it might seem. Asking 'daft' questions is the best way to learn in my experience LOL
Top   #13
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Aspects and orbs.

Before going on any further with charts, I need to say something about the aspects and orbs used.

In traditional Astrology, certainly up till the Seventeenth Century, only 4 aspects were used:

The Opposition,
The Square
The Trine
The Sextile

The Conjunction is not strictly speaking an aspect. That is because an aspect is a view or sight of something. It implies we can see but not touch. A conjunction is a physical bodily joining - we're entwined so to speak.

As the Greeks, especially were wizards at maths and geometry one might ask why the didn't use all those new angles, such as biquintiles or sesquiquadrates, or even semi-sextiles (or should that be demi-semi-trines?)

The answer lies in the geometric shapes that can be drawn between the signs, with but one point in each sign. The Greeks incidentally used whole sign aspects, so any planet in Aries is sextile to any planet in Gemin - and the whole sign requirement is important to the origin and basis of aspects.

Using the quadraplicities, (Cardinal, Fixed and Mutable) you can draw a series of squares - this gives the square aspect and also the opposition (the dividing line between two opposite corners). Using the Triplicities you can draw a series of triangles, each side of which gives a trine.

The only other figures that can be drawn are the hexagon (the alternative points of the triangles drawn from the triplicities) giving the sextile a 12 sided figure (dodecagon) producing the 30 degree aspect we call a semi sextile but this was seen as far too weak to have effect, probably because the 'line of sight' between the two adjacent signs was too oblique to be easily managed.

The inconjunct 'aspect' of 150 degrees was known but no figure can be inscribed in the circle of the zodiac using this angle, neither can one using any of the other

Now an octagon could be drawn which matches the requirement to have but one point in any sign, however if you try to draw one you will find that some of the points are actually sextile by sign and the others semi-sextile by sign. Take away the semi-sextiles (as they are too weak to be effective) all that you are left with are sextiles.

According to Deb Houlding (who presumably has tried) all the other modern aspects fail to meet the requirements, though I suspect that the quintile (which forms a pentagon) might well meet the one point per sign criteria but leave a mixture of other aspects in terms of whole signs.

In the Seventeenth Century Kepler introduced the quintile family (multiples of 72 degrees) and the sesquiquadrate (135 degrees). These were based on the analogy of the musical scale, not the geometry of the Hellenistic whole sign approach. Kepler in fact cut (or greatly reduced) the link between sign and aspect and opened the door to the modern flood of harmonics, not to mention the out of sign use of traditional aspects - e.g. allowing a planet at 25 degrees Aries to sextile another at 5 degrees Cancer.

The only 'out of sign' connection that I'll be using is the conjunction (which is not really an aspect and what matters there is the bodily union not the line of sight - However other traditional Astrologers might well treat even that as unacceptable. However I think that most would certainly allow conjunctios with the Sun to cross sign boundaries (as it produces the accidental debility of combustion) so if it's ok for the Sun....

The other main difference in aspects in traditional Astrology is orbs. The modern approach is to give orbs to aspects - which is nonsense. An aspect is a line of sight and a line has no breadth. Traditional Astrology assigns orbs to planets and thus if the line of sight can go from one planet to the other hitting it in it's orb then the aspect is acceptable. Orbs are related to the planets, apparent size (remembering that distance of viewing point can have an effect on size - Venus is far nearer than Jupiter and therefore looks relatively much bigger than it actually is in comparison.

The orbs are:

Sun : 17 degrees
Moon ; 12.5 degrees
Jupiter 12 degrees
Saturn: 10 degrees
Venus: 8 degrees
Mars: 7.5 degrees
Mercury 7 degrees

It shoud be noted that the planet lies in the middle of these orbs, so in a two dimensional chart a planet aspecting Saturn must have it's own orb extend to at least 5 degrees from Saturn. i.e. If Saturn is at 15 degrees of Cancer, to be sextile to it Venus in Taurus must be at least at 6 degrees. (Add the two orbs together and divide by two for the separation - so 10+8=18, divided by 2=9 degrees separation to be in aspect.)

Remember points have no orbs, so in the Bill Clinton chart, Mars is within a degree of the Ascendant and so is well within orb. Venus on the other hand is 5 degrees away and that is outside it's semi-orb of 4 degrees, so Venus does not conjoin the Ascendant. If Venus and Jupiter changed places and Jupiter was at the same 11 degrees of Libra, Jupiter WOULD aspect the Ascendant because it's semi-orb is 6 degrees and that certainly does stretch out to an Ascendant at 5 degrees 30 minutes. For a modern Astrologer they are either both in aspect or both out of aspect, for a traditional Astrologer it's the planet that matters, when considering whether an aspect is formed.

Instead of using the phrase semi-orb or half-orb I'll use the technical term moeity from now on.

OK so much for aspects and orbs.
Top   #14
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Bill Clinton's Chart Revisited - 1

Ok, we've looked at Aspects so let's just have a look at Bill Clinton's chart for a little amplification and also a look at a traditional method that just doesn't get used in a modern context.

I'm going to concentrate on the Moon, his tenth House ruler and it's relationship to the Sun, and to Mercury and Saturn (which may be seen as his political 'mind')

We have seen that there is a square aspect between the Moon and the Sun, which is the strongest aspect in the chart (remembering that conjunctions are not aspects).

A square is not always the same - it depends on a number of factors, not least the planets themselves. Indeed the same square can be seen as asymmetrical.

So what can we say about this square?

Firstly the Moon squares from the 8th House and a square from there is a bit stronger than from a fortunate house, such as the seventh or ninth. The aspect is also applying which also makes it stronger (The Moon is moving closer to the Sun)

Secondly a square from the Moon (a cold and moist planet) is not as strong as a square from the Sun (a Hot and Dry planet and remember a square has the characteristics of Mars, a Hot and Dry planet). One might also add that the Moon is not naturally a malefic planet.

Thirdly the Moon is in exaltation but the Sun is in it's rulership and is also Triplicity ruler, The Sun is essentially stronger.

Fourthly, The Sun is in Hayz but the Moon is above the horizon in a diurnal chart - the Moon is weaker according to the diurnal nature of the chart (called 'sect')

Finally there is the issue of symmetry. The Sun's square goes in the direction of the primary motion - that is in the direction in which planets pass across the heavens. This is called a 'dexter' square. 'Dexter' is Latin for 'right' (as in the right hand side) If you look at the chart you will see that the Moon clearly lies to the right of the Sun.

The Moon's square is in the opposite direction, from left to right. It is called a 'sinister' square - not because there is something dubious about it but because 'sinister' is the Latin for 'left'. Sinister square go forward in the zodiac (in this case from Taurus to Leo) but against the natural motion of the sky.

Dexter square (or for that matter dexter trines and dexter sextiles) are a little stronger than the sinister variety. Apart from the issue of simply being against natural motion, if you think of planets facing in the direction they are going - from East to West, then for the Moon to 'see' the Sun she must look behind her - always something of a disadvantage.

All these factors suggest that on balance the Sun is going to be the one to come out on top here. Clinton's drive to success may be hindered but it won't be stopped.

Now lets introduce the something new - Antiscea.

Clinton's MC is at 6 degrees Cancer (to the nearest degree). Let's shift the point of reference to 0 Cancer. The Sun at 0 Cancer marks the longest day (Sun above th horizon). It's opposite degree 0 Capricorn marks the shortest day). If you think about it, at 29 Gemini and 1 degree Cancer, the length of daylight is a little shorter (indeed at both these points the length of daylight is the same). As you move a degree further away in each direction, the length of daylight between the two degrees are the same as each other. This relationship is called Antiscia and was treated as the equivalent of a Conjunction (Equivalent is not 'the same')'

If we look at the Moon at 20 degrees Taurus, it's Antiscion (Antiscia is plural, Antiscion is singular) is at 9 degrees Leo, very close to Mercury and within Mercury's moeity. This unites Mercury and the Moon. Saturn's moeity is 5 degrees, so it is not quite united with the Moon. However Saturn is united with Mercury by conjunction. So we have the three planets linked.

Mercury and Saturn in the tenth are linked to the tenth House ruler, the Moon and in a positive way. This adds a political instinct to Clinton's political nous (though given the Moon's placement and diurnal weakness this might sometimes backfire).

Antiscia and their opposite points (Contra-antiscia) are used a lot in traditional Astrology but if you are going to use them make sure you are using a tropical zodiac - they do not work in a sidereal one without a lot of adjustment.

One final point for today. The Moon is also a natural symbol of the Wife, so could we see this relationship between Sun/Moon and Mercury/Saturn as telling us something about Hilary's role in Clinton's success and indeed his political vulnerability. Of course being a Day chart, you might argue that a better natural significator would be Venus in his first house (and also ruler of the eighth).

There isn't a right answer to that, but you might find it interesting to think about it.

I'm not sure whether I will have time to post further today or tomorrow but the next thing I want to look at is 'Temeperament' and again I'll use Clinton as an example.
Top   #15
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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The Temperament of Bill Clinton.

I'm not going to do a full reading for Bill Clinton but there are a couple of things that really distinguish a Traditional approach to reading a natal chart that we should look at.

Psychology is a fairly recent 'science' and clearly medieval Astrologers had no idea of Jung or Freud. However there is an element in the Traditional approach that can be said to be 'psychological' and that is the evaluation of 'temperament' 'mind' and 'manners' Temperament is the underlying approach to life and issues, as well as an indicator of health risks and issues. 'Mind' looks at the rational and instinctual ways of thought and 'Manners' are a lot like character.

To evaluate temperament we need to be aware that everything can be measured in terms of two dimensions, Hot and Cold on the one hand, and Moist and Dry on the other. Indeed these terms are still part of the way that we describe people - 'cold hearted', 'dry wit', 'hot tempered' and 'a bit wet' are all descriptions used in everyday descriptions of people.

These four qualities combine to determine four temperaments:

Hot and Moist (Sanguine) - friendly, shallow, cheerful, lucky
Hot and Dry (Choleric) - optimistic, aggressive, impatient, takes charge
Cold and Dry (Melancholic) - pessimistic, thoughtful, studious, anti-social
Cold and Moist (Phlegmatic) - slow, resigned, shy, contemplative

These four temperaments can also be seen as Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter respectively and the traditional Astrologer did see the season of birth as a contributory (but not the main contributory) factor to a person's temperament.

Each Astrologer had some variation of his own when it came to assessing temperament but there are three core areas that all seem to include:

The Ascendant and it's ruler(s)
The Moon, sign, ruler and phase
The Sun, season of the year

I'm going to look at Clinton's temperament using a model put forward by Dorian Greenbaum in her book on Temperament. I've found that it works well. The scoring is Greenbaum's

1. The Ascendant

Libra is an Air sign and Air is Hot and Moist - Sanguine Greenbaum gives the Ascendant sign 20% of the overall score.

Ruler Venus - Venus' is Occidental and Greenbaum says that Venus Occidental is Phlegmatic (Cold and Moist) - Greenbaum gives the ruler of the Ascendant 10%

Ascendant Almuten - Saturn. Saturn is in exaltation in Libra and also Triplicity ruler for the Air signs in a Day chart. Saturn is a Cold and Dry planet, so is Melacholic - Greenbaum gives the Almuten 10%

2 The Moon

The Moon is in Taurus an Earth sign, and hence Cold and Dry - Melancholic and this scores 20%

The Moon ruler is Venus and as we have seen Venus is Phlegmatic - the Moon ruler scores 10%

The Moon's phase - this is third quarter. The quarters run in the same order as the seasons, so the third quarter is Melancholic. The phase scores 10%

3 The Sun

The Sun only contributes the remaining 20% and does so by season.

Sun in Leo = Summer = Choleric.

That gives us 40% Melancholic, 20% Sanguine, 20% Choleric and 20% Phlegmatic.

That's a good mix of all four types with the dominant part being analytical, careful, able to plan. That dominant part is supported by a social capability, the ability to take decisions and has drive, that in turn is modified by the ability to stop think and consider. Lastly there is the ability to adapt, phlegmatics are Water and water takes the shape of it's container. Clinton has an ability to think outside the box, if need be. However in the main he is likely to keep to known and well trodden methods and paths.

To sum up, Bill Clinton is a smoothe operator who knows the political value of friendship and will plan to get what he wants.

Note that even where signs are taken into account it is the temperamental nature of the sign that counts. There's no talking about Clinton the Leo personality.

Tomorrow we'll look at his 'Mind' and 'Manners'
Top   #16
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le.jour.obscurcit  le.jour.obscurcit is offline
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I'm loving this thread! Thank you Minderwiz.
Top   #17
Minderwiz's Avatar
Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Thanks LJO,

I'm hoping to get the next section done later today but have a family meal coming up, which might delay it till tomorrow
Top   #18
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Bill Clinton's Mind

This section is brief, so I've time to post before I go out.

Classically the mind has two parts - the logical rational part ruled by Mercury and the Animal or non-rational part ruled by the Moon.

We've already identified Mercury in the tenth (though in Leo) and conjunct Saturn. A forensic mind but not the equivalent of a CSI team in politics - Mercury is only moderately essentially dignified and whilst Saturn may be a 'friend' here, Saturn is moderately debilitated. They are however in the right place LOL. We have also seen that the Moon has a lot of essential dignity, being Exalted in Taurus but badly placed in the eighth and above the horizon in a day chart. There is a link between the two parts of his mind - as we have seen the antiscion of the Moon conjoins Mercury. This might add some good political instincts but it is still a little suspect given the Moon's accidental debility.

Mercury in Leo is ruled by the Sun. Quite literally Clinton's heart rules his head. This is not to say that he is overcome by his emotions - a modern misinterpretation. His heart is what makes him 'Bill Clinton' that the gives him 'drive' in our sense. Up till around the Seventeenth Century it was thought that the seat of the soul and the mind was in the heart. We still have sayings such as being faint hearted, good hearted, having the heart for the fight, etc. Bill Clinton has a lot of heart and it governs his thought processes.

He is one of those who like Louis XIV believes quite sincerely that the public interest and his own interest are almost indistinguishable, or to misquote the US urban myth, 'What's good for Bill Clinton is good for America'.

Louis XIV was of course known as the Sun King, so perhaps Bill was the Sun President Not the cuddly lion image of modern Astrology but the self directed and driven mind.

OK next post will look at Bill's 'manners'
Top   #19
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ravenest  ravenest is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks

Thanks heaps for posting a thread like this. I will find it interesting and illuminating (but have to copy to my stick and read at home - no home internet acess). AS you probably already figured I am interested in the development and premises of astrology and the various types that have been around.
Top   #20



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