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ANA  ANA is offline
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i thank you!!!

what i am actualy doing is print your posts and i have started my own introductory folder to classic astrology, you posts are the basis for it, so not only i am following i am planning on studying it!!!

thank you for taking the time!
Top   #21
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Bill Clinton - Significators of Manners

We looked at Bill Clinton's Mind yesterday, today is the turn of his 'Manners' and indeed some other significators as well.

Lilly says that we need to look first for planets in the Ascendant, In Bill's case we have three - Mars, Venus and Jupiter. All three of them will at some time or other be his principle significator. Lilly says that the most 'durable' of these will be the one which is most dignified - in this case, Venus. How the others will show will be determined through examining the primary directions.

As well as the three above planets, we would also consider the planets with dignity in the positions occupied by the principle significators. We already have Venus by rulership, but Saturn would have dignity because it has exaltation and triplicity rulership in Libra. So Saturn will participate. We could also consider Mercury as it sextiles both the Ascendant and Mars (one of the principle significators).

Notice that neither the Sun or Moon is mentioned. Lilly says that, 'in the horoscope' (first house) they 'effect no great matters but in a general way, unless they be wonderfully strongly fortified'. That statement would cause consternation to the Sun Sign fans. It might well be argued that the Sun is 'wonderfully strongly fortified' - The Sun is in fall in Libra, so that lets it out.

I'm not going to spend pages trying to sort out the balance of the above now, but I will give Lilly's interpretation for each of them:

Principle significators,

Venus - well disposed (which this Venus is) 'Pleasant, cheerful and fair conditioned....decent in their apparel (well dressed) good, bountiful, merciful..prone to their delights,given to be cleanly and take pleasure in sports and pastimes, subtle, elegant, poetical' Clearly someone who is personable and makes a very good impression.

Jupter - is not particularly strong at all, barely just dignity by Face. Well dignified we would have 'honest, just liberal, Governors and eminent men. Performing high matters, sober, grave , with a kind of moderation, prudent, living virtuously and orderly. Ill dignified 'lovers of themselves, much of the manners as for well dignified but a little more obscure and imperfect. Negligent, dissembling, prodigal. With his Jupiter, we have something in between the two readings for Jupiter. Jupiter is conjunct two fixed stars, Arcturus and Spica. Lilly doesn't mention Arcturus but Bernadette Brady links it to 'a different approach'. Lilly links Spica to a 'sweet disposition' diligent in attaining Arts and sciences, Spica is pushing Jupiter towards the well dignified readidng.

Mars - Mars is by some distance the worst dignified. So we look at the 'ill dignified reading - 'quarrelsome, rash and headstrong, bloody minded, unshamefaced, impudent is provoking but timerous when it comes to action, an author of dissension, tumults and sedition.

Lilly says that according to the ancients with the significators in Libra we get 'one inconstant, crafty, conceited of his own parts (things he does). He does not comment on that so we can't be sure he agrees.

Like all other Astrologers of his time Lilly tries to identify the physical characteristics from the horoscope. Liily is aware that this won't work universally - he recognises ethnic characteristics will make readings different from person to person. However in Lilly's time in England, it wasn't the problem that it would be today. So how far Lilly would modify his views I'm not sure.

For the Libra Ascendant he identifies a person of moderate to tall stature - Venus gives a man of fair but not tall stature, white , large fair hair, lovely light brown eyes, , lovely mouth, dimple in his cheek and full of amorous enticements. This will be modified by Mars, which would add a little more yellow to the hair, perhaps a slightly larger frame than for Venus' large sharp and piercing eyes, It perhaps lightens his eye colour, towards grey, the face is a bit more oval than for Venus. Occidental Jupiter (rising after the Sun) inclines the hair to a dark flaxen.

Now Lilly read corporature and looks day in day out so he would be a lot better than me at identifying the balance here, but hopefully you get the idea.
Top   #22
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Other Significators for Bill Clinton

I want to move on a little but before I do just a short note on other significators that might be looked for.

Lord/Lady of the Geniture - this is the planet with most dignity, both essential and accidental. I would take this as the Sun for Bill. Some authorities took it as a contributor to temperament. As the Sun is Hot and Dry this would add more Choler to Bill.

Almuten of the Figure (orChart) - the most often quoted calculation of this is that given by Ibrahim Ibn Ezra (Abraham Ben Ezra is better as he was Jewish). It's a complex calculation which takes into account the previous lunation and the planetary day and hour rulers along with a number of other more obvious factors, such as the Almuten for each planet. Ezra said

'The most powerful testimony of all is that planet having dominion over the entire chart, which the Saracens called the Almuten, It's testimony is equally as powerful as all the other planets taken together'

'The Almuten Figuris represents the power that dominates the life of an individual'

For Bll Clinton the Almuten of the Chart is Saturn - Bill has a lot more weight than he seems to have on first sight.

The last significator I'll mention is the 'Hyleg' or 'Apheta'. This is the planet or point 'considered to have the greatest influence upon vitality and thus known as "the giver of life". It was used in the calculation of the length of life, and directions or contacts between the hyleg and destructive planets or places (Anareta) were used to mark periods where life was endangered. I'm not going to make an estimate of when Bill Clinton will die, for two reasons, firstly I feel intuitively that modern medicine influences such circumstances quite dramatically and secondly because I'm not good enough to do the calculation properly.

There are several ways of calculating the hyleg, but the three methods used by Solar Fire come up with a single answer - The Sun. Most methods are looking for planets above the horizon and consider the houses in a set order to examine the planets in them.

My next post tomorrow will look at how the rest of the chart was read and following that some comments on the Lots or Parts, When that's completed we can begin to look at predictions.
Top   #23
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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The Parts of Bill Clinton - 1

In both Hellenistic and Arabic Astrology the Lots (Greek) or Parts (Arabic) played a very big role. It's clear that the origin was in Greek practice but mushroomed during the Arab period. Most of those later Parts were of dubious if not specious value.

The Lots or Parts were the mid points of their day, and had Dave been operating in 3rd Century Alexandria (much warmer than MA) he would have been advising students to consult the lots as an essential part of their chart analysis and the Hellenistic lots certainly seem to yield a lot of useful information to the Astrologer. All Parts/Lots have the formula A + B - C, Where A, B and C can be points, planets, or indeed other parts.

The one Part that we all know is the Part of Fortune. Most Astrological software puts this in place as a matter of course. What perhaps fewer of us are aware is that the Part of Fortune (and the majority of Lots/Parts) changes depending on whether we have a Day or Night Birth.

The formula for a Day birth is: PF = Asc + Moon - Sun
For an night birth the formula is PF = Asc + Sun - Moon

I've seen some modern Astrologers comment that they can detect little difference through reversing the calculation but perhaps they are reverse position in each Chart is the Part of Spirit. So by day the Part of Spirit is Asc + Sun - Moon. The two parts relate to reciprocal bits of our lives, the Part of Fortune relates to the turning of the wheel of Fortune and the Part of Spirit how we make our choices and initiate activity.

For Bill Clinton the Part of Fortune is 29 degrees 48 Gemini (The Greeks would probably have calculated it as 0 Cancer). The Part of Spirit is at 11 degrees 12 minutes of Capricorn.

Let’s look at the two in more detail. Bill Clintons Part of Fortune is in a Day chart, so the Calculation is to take the distance from the Sun (Sect ruler) to the Moon [Moon – Sun] and then project this from the Ascendant. As a point the Part of Fortune is passive but the ruler of the planet is the one that influences fortune. (Note that ‘fortune’ here is not just wealth but also health and indeed anything else that is dealt to Bill by the Cosmos).

For the Gemini Part of Fortune Mercury is both ruler and Almuten. As we have seen Mercury is in the tenth joined to Saturn (who is the triplicity ruler for the Part of Fortune). Mercury is not wonderfully dignified, so Bill is not going to be extremely luck in life, but Mercury is sextile the Ascendant, in the tenth and in Antiscion to the Moon. Mercury has a lot of good connections. So Bill may get his luck from his connections. Mercury through Gemini rules the Ninth House – education and philosophy and law. These factors may contribute to fortune’s gift.

Bill’s own contribution and efforts are represented by the Part of Spirit. In Capricorn the sign ruler is Saturn, with Mars in exaltation and Mars also has dignity by Face, taking it up to the same point count as Saturn. Saturn and Mars rule the Part of Spirit. Saturn is moderately debilitated and Mars is very debilitated but both are in angular houses (despite Saturn being a little out of sign). Interestingly Saturn is the Fourth House ruler, his home and family and Mars is the Seventh House ruler so Home, family and wife are the mechanisms that Bill uses to influence events and the course of his life. This influence may not always be to his best advantage. So Bill’s luck seems a little better than his own efforts.

There is a lot more than could be done with these parts, the Greeks often erected a system of houses or places that were measured from a Part or planet. So we might look at how Hilary as Bill's wife effects his luck in more detail, counting her significator as the ruler of the seventh place from the Part of Fortune. The Greeks used whole signs and if we take the Part of Fortune to it's nearest degree as 0 Cancer, then the place of the wife is the seventh sign from there Capricorn! The loophole in Bill's luck is his wife!

Well I'll look as some more Lots next, ones that are not used at all these days. That post will be either Sunday or Monday.
Top   #24
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Lots of Bill Clinton

I’m going to do two further posts on the Lots/Parts. Today’s post looks at six lots, five of which are hermetic. All these were used by the Greeks, as will be those in the next post, This means that you will find some differences in approach from that of Lilly and Morin, as we are going back some 1500 years or more before their time. As the Greeks referred to them as ‘Lots’, I will do the same.

The non-hermetic lot is the Lot of Exaltaton. To calculate this for a Day chart we need to calculate the distance of the Sun from its exaltation degree (19 Aries) and add the result to the degree of the Ascendant. Exaltation = Asc + 19 Aries – Sun. For Night charts it is Asc + 03 Taurus – Moon (using the exaltation degree of the Moon as Sect ruler for the Night).

For Bill Clinton this is 28 Taurus 30 and it’s Ruler is Venus . Venus is strong in essential dignity. For a strong chart we would also need strong rulers of Fortune and Spirit. For Fortune the Greeks would probably have rounded it to 0 Cancer, and it is thus ruled by the exalted Moon. Spirit is ruled by the not so strong Saturn. However the Greeks placed a great deal of emphasis on the Triplicity rulers and if we look at the Triplicity rulers for the Earth signs, by day the order is Venus and Moon – both of which have strong essential dignity. So it looks like Bill has a strong chart.

The Hermetic Lots are (by Day):

Eros : Asc + Venus – Spirit = 16 Capricorn 48
Victory: Asc + Jupiter – Spirit = 28 Capricorn 55
Courage: Asc + Fortune – Mars = 28 Gemini 57
Nemesis: Asc + Fortune – Saturn = 2 Virgo 30
Necessity Asc + Fortune – Mercury = 27 Leo 55

To derive the Lots by Night carry out the usual reversal of the second and third terms (B & C)

Eros and Victory use the Lot of Spirit and so are related to Bill Clinton’s own efforts to influence events. The other three use the Lot of Fortune and have to do with circumstances dealt by forces outside his control. Interestingly the first two are ruled by Saturn, the remaining three are ruled by Mercury (Courage and Nemesis) and the last one, Necessity, is ruled by the Sun.

Eros is about friendships and relationships that Bill can use to his advantage. Victory is concerned with success and expectations achieved. The Greeks placed almost a s much emphasis on Triplicity rulers. For the Earth signs, again Venus and Moon are the Triplicity rulers. Venus , as the primary Triplicity ruler by Day is well placed in the First, so Bill is likely to influence by his personality, looks and mind. We have seen that the Moon is essentially strong but weakly placed, Bill might well misfire here but he has the instinct to use his talents well. Both Lots are well placed in the Fourth House of the natal chart. The are also in the same House as the Lot of Spirit itself and are placed angularly from the Lot of Fortune.

Necessity is concerned with restricted and difficult situations , including imprisonment, law suits and battles. It shows his need to adapt in overcoming difficult circumstances. Nemesis is thoroughly wretched and shows the hidden negative factors that could lead to weakness, excile, loss and death.

In Bill Clinton’s case Necessity lies in Leo in the eleventh House. the Triplicity rulers are Sun and Jupiter. The eleventh is a succedent House and relates to Friends and the machinery of government. Difficult circumstances may arise from actions of his friends or the way that he is affected by the machinery of government or uses the machinery of government if in a position of power. Given the role of the Sun as sign ruler and Principle Triplicity Lord, we can guess that any threat from these directions is likely to be overcome, given the Sun’s sizeable essential dignity. Jupiter might have less essential dignity but he is well placed in the first. Incidentally the Lot of Necessity lies in the second House from the Lot of Fortune, so Bill’s wealth generating activities might also contribute to a ‘difficult situation’ and threat of imprisonment.

Bill Clinton’s Lot of Courage is in Gemini in the ninth House of the nativity and the twelfth House from the Lot of Fortune. The former placement is cadent, and so weak. The placement relative to the Lot of Fortune is worse. The ninth House relates to Religion, especially organised religion and public religious standards. Neither Mercury the sign ruler or Saturn and Mercury as the main two Triplicity rulers are strong. Has Bill Clinton should certainly be careful about any challenge he makes to the dominant religious standards of the day because that is his weak area.

Finally Nemesis lies in Virgo, in the twelfth House. A wretched place for a wretched Lot. It relates to hidden negative factors, weaknesses, exile, loss and death. As we have seen Mercury, the ruler is not particularly strong in essential dignity but is well placed in the tenth. Luckily the Earth Triplicity rulers are fairly strong, especially Venus the ruler by Day. Bill Clinton is at greatest risk from his secrets and from hidden enemies (‘friends’ who may conspire against him, or people who ‘accidentally’ act in a way that becomes a threat to him). Surviving such bad luck is not easy by any means. A ‘bad’ lot in a ‘bad’ house promises that things could become really ‘bad’ at some point. Survival is down to Venus, or how well Clinton can store up support through his first house attributes, his temperament, looks, and character. If the Lot is activated then there could be real problems.

As with all things in a natal chart they show ‘promise’ or ‘potential’ but that promise and potential may not be activated - even if they are we would like to be able to predict when. Looking at primary directions might be the way we can forecast when each of these lots is at its most active. If we get time for it we might look at that at some stage.

The next step will be to look at the lots of love and romance – well at least marriage LOL.
Top   #25
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squeakmo9  squeakmo9 is offline
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Smile Excellent stuff!

I really appreciate you sharing your wealth of information on this, and am following at my own pace. Lots to take in, but really interesting! Thank you Minderwiz
Top   #26
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The Lots of Marriage and Romance

Whilst there are lots of Lots, I'm going to finish my consideration of Lots/Parts with some relating to Love and Romance. Again there are a few variants. Ptolemy used the Sun or Moon for marriage of a woman or a man respectively. He also used Venus and Mars for issues of sexuality in the natal charts of women and men. That would seem quite reasonable to a modern Astrologer, however Ptolemy was not in line with the majority practice, which was to use Venus for sexuality in both female and male charts. It's likely that this was because Mars has connotations of violence.

For Bill Clinton his marriage partner would be shown by the Moon (exalted in Taurus but in the eighth) As we have seen the Moon rules the tenth and the Lot of Exaltation both of which show that his marriage has enhanced his status and career prospects. Howver it's placement in the eighth and the fact that the Moon has no direct contact with Venus (the Ascendant ruler) shows that Bill and Hillary are not quite as strongly connected as might be the case .By sign Sun, Saturn and Mercury square the Moon. Ptolemy says the Moon aspected by Saturn shows an austere wife, easily fatigued and the Mercury connection shows a wife with intellect. The Sun is the husband, so this square might show a marriage of tensions. The Moon in a double sign (Pisces, Gemini, Sagittarius) might be taken as an indicator of more than one marriage. As Taurus is a single bodied sign that looks like only one marriage for Bill.

The Lots

The first lot is provided by Paulus of Alexandria.

Lot of Marriage = Asc + Venus - Saturn (Men) : Asc + Saturn - Venus (Women)

Saturn is more diurnal and masculine, Venus is nocturnal and feminine. The use of Saturn also suggests formality and structure, so this is the formal marriage and relationship of commitment.

Vettius Valens defines a Lot of Marriage that uses Jupiter rather than Saturn. This lot is the same for both sexes but differs depending on whether it's a Day or Night chart.

Marriage = Asc + Venus - Jupiter (Day)
Marriage = Asc + Jupiter - Venus (Night)

The use of Jupiter seems to suggest a public role and also marital happiness and fertility (both benefics are used and Jupiter is a planet of increase).

Valens has a second Lot, which seems to be Love as a downfall or failure.

Marriage2 = Asc + Venus - Sun (Men day and night)
Marriage2 = Asc + Mars - Moon (Women day and night)

Note that Venus rules Libra the sign of the Sun's fall and Mars rules Scorpio the sign of the Moon's Fall.

For both these Lots to work to the benefit of the individual, for Men the Lot must agree with the Lot of Spirit, the women's Lot must agree with the Lot of Fortune.

For Bill Clinton

Paulus Marriage = 14 Sagittarius 29
Valens Marriage = 23 Virgo 24
Valens Marriage2 = 20Scorpio 37

The Paulus Lot is in the Third House and is ruled by Jupiter, in the first. Jupiter in Libra is ruled by Venus which brings harmony to the marriage, the presence of Mars in the first detracts from that.

Valens first Lot is in the Twelfth House ruled by Mercury. Mercury is in the tenth and mildly dignified. This marriage Lot again Links the marriage with status and career.

Valens second Lot is in Scorpio ruled by Mars. Mars is weak but on the Ascendant. Ruled by a malefic and in the House of Money and possessions this is not a particularly good Lot. Again it points to downfall in love through money and greed (Mars is avaracious, especially when badly dignified). Will he survive? Well we need to look at any agreement between the Lot of marriage2 and the Lot of Spirit.

The Lot of Spirit is in Capricorn and so the two Lots are sextile by sign - one agreement here. The two rulers are Mars and Saturn. Mars in Libra sextiles Saturn in Leo, a second agreement. This looks like enough agreement for Bill to survive any downfall that might come his way. BUT, with Mars and Saturn involved any related situation will be both violent (at least metaphorically so) and the consequences will be both long term and quite heavy.

Again the timing of associated events could be determined by looking at Primary Directions.
Top   #27
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Reading the Chart - other issues

Once the chart has been drawn up and the temperament, mind, manners and first house issues considered. A Traaditional natal reading would progress House by House with a concentration on the following houses

Fourth - Family and real estate
Seventh - Marriage
Tenth - status and career
Fifth - Children

The Sixth would be used as part of a reading for illness (or servants). The eighth would be used more to assess the wealth and income that a potential wife would bring to the marriage. The Second would be used to assess income and wealth (not in the form of real estate).

The Third would be used to assess brothers (who can strongly influence success in an agricultural society).

For the Greeks the Ninth is more concerned with religion, dreams, vision and prophecy - the emphasis on long journeys and higher education came later. It's interesting that modern Astrologers who don't know the history of their art try to link these things with Neptune or the twelfth House.

There was no attempt to integrate the entire chart nor to worry about empty houses nor to concentrate on aspects, rather than placement. That is not to say that the chart as a whole does not count - as we have seen it plays a great role in assessing the overall strength or weakness of the nativity. However the end result is not a 50 page report (or longer) it's a brief and concise assessment that forms the basis for prediction. The Natal chart is not an end in itself it is the means to predict what will happen. That will be the next instalment .
Top   #28
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Introduction to Prediction

For the last 100 years or more Astrology has retreated from making predictions. Much of this is due to social and legal pressures. If you can be prosecuted for witchcraft or fortune telling or even if making an Astrological prediction is seen as the equivalent of a gypsy reading a crystal ball on the end of a seaside pier, then the Astrologer who wants to sell his or her services may find real problems in pursuing their profession. As a result and combined with the influence of Jung’s interpretation of Astrology, Astrologers have turned to psychological profiling or counselling, using only the natal chart. That is not to say that predictive techniques don’t exist in modern Astrology. Secondary Progressions and Transits are widely used and Dave has demonstrated a very effective system based on Precessed Solar Returns but whereas Lilly’s Book Three on ‘How to Judge upon Nativities' is divided approximately 50% on how to read a chart and 50% on making predictions, there is no modern textbook I know of that both introduces and explains natal Astrology and goes on to look at making predictions from the natal chart in that relative depth. Lilly’s book is only 300 pages long, in quite large type! – a rarity by modern standards.

Lilly and Morin (and other Astrologers of their time) used three predictive models. Of these two would be very familiar to a modern Astrologer such as Dave. The familiar methods would be Solar (and Lunar) returns and transits. The unfamiliar method would be Primary Directions, which they would take as the superior method (in the sense of both the most powerful and the one that was carried out first). I’m not going to look at the familiar methods, apart from mentioning that none of the Traditional Astrologers adjusted for precession, partly because for some it was not really that relevant but for most it seems something that they were unaware of or did not give any weight to. That is not to say that precession correction is something that should not be tried. Indeed as precession is cumulative there is a far more powerful argument for precession correction now than in Lilly’s time.

Primary Directions existed in Hellenistic times, though nowhere near as sophisticated as in the Seventeenth Century. The Greeks also used transits but also as a subordinate method to the use of Directions, Profections and Planetary Time Lord Systems. I’ll be looking at the latter two methods in another post.

The main difference in the use of transits in Hellenistic times was that, aspects from transiting planets were measured in whole signs. So if Mars is transiting Leo then it aspects by sextile any natal planet in Gemini, or Libra (and of course the same holds for squares, trines, oppositions and conjunctions). As traditional Transits ignore the outer planets, they are more episodic than modern transits I must admit to being an Astrologer who looks at transits with tight orbs between transiting and natal planet – however it might be interesting at some stage to try out the looser system of the Greeks and see how it compares – but remember that if transits don’t accord with directions or profections then they will not trigger anything.

Before looking at Directions in some detail, I want to end this post with a mention of fixed stars. Fixed stars are almost unknown in modern Astrological practice. Some stars were considered as being related to particular conditions – for example Ptolemy links a number of stars to the condition of blindness because their position is ‘cloudy’.

Other stars are of a similar nature to planets, or combinations of planets. Thus Spica was seen as similar to a combination of Venus and Mercury charming, well spoken and intelligent but possibly prone to promiscuity and sexual fickleness. Rigel was similar to Jupiter and Saturn – independent minded and with great wealth and possessions but willing to work for them. These are not the only stars with such properties and other planet combinations are also mentioned for other stars. Lilly mentions about 50 fixed stars and not all of the stars used in Traditional Astrology are found in the Zodiac belt. If there’s any demand for it I can look at the fixed stars as a section on their own later on. One point I will make here though is that the fixed stars are visible and are real bodies. It’s odd that such bright objects which have had such a profound effect on our civilisation have been abandoned in favour of ‘worshipping’ very small, invisible bodies lost in the outer reaches of the solar system, which emit no energy of their own, nor reflect the light of the Sun.
Top   #29
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alec  alec is offline
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When are you putting out your own introductory textbook on traditional astrology? You could even self-publish in PDF or eBook format. I'd buy it.

Wonderfully clear material and presentation. Am learning a lot. Thank you

Top   #30



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