Direction of the Elements in Thelemic Pentagram rituals

I'm studying some Thelemic Pentagram rituals and am perplexed by the direction of the elements. I understand that we are using the order of the fixed signs of the zodiac, rather than the four winds as used in the GD version, however am wondering why Earth is given the starting point in the East. Why not start with any of the other elements?

I've been happy with the East/Air/Raphael/Tipareth/Sunrise attribution on the LBRP, so am curious about the reason for the change here.

Any comments received very gratefully!

I seem to remember there was something about this in LMD's "The Magick of Aleister Crowley". Try Chapters 4 and 5 - I'm not up for re-reading just now (apart from the fact that I was so disappointed in the book I don't want to look at it for another six months) but if you can't find it (or don't have the book) I will push my luck and ask Lon through the Thoth course contact for you, if you like.

\m/ Kat

thanks Kat, I did look at that book, there was some discussion about how a Thelemite perceives Earth compared to Osirian views, but I didn't see anything specific as to why start there. The closest I can see is that this means the order is Earth, Air, Water, Fire which has a developmental pattern that seems appropriate. I'm hoping for something more howevevr

Fair enough Could it have something to do with the cycling through from the highest high to the lowest low, Earth being the throne of Spirit and all that?

Just theorising now. I need more sleep

\m/ Kat

Stele - Pantacle - Earth - Ace of Disks - 666

ΣTHΛH + 666 = 718

III:10 Get the stélé of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple—and that temple is already aright disposed—& it shall be your Kiblah for ever.

III:19 That stélé they shall call the Abomination of Desolation; count well its name, & it shall be to you as 718.

III:21 Set up my image in the East

Ah, perfect thanks Aeon. I'm assuming ΣTHΛH is stele?

This now leaves me with another quandary however. Our nice EARTH-AIR-WATER-FIRE order is only good for the northern hemisphere. If I was to move widdershins southern hemisphere version, I would be traveling EARTH-FIRE-WATER-AIR.

Unless, I just decide that since I am the Sun, that widdershins/deosil is irrelevant from my perspective and I just fudge it as I did for the LBRP. But, for a ritual that has such a solar base, perhaps it should be more important...

See how much simpler life is above the equator

Grigori said:

I'm assuming ΣTHΛH is stele?

Click to expand...

Bingo!

I'll clarrify one point to avoid the possibility of someone having a spelling related panic attack.

If you calculate the numerical value of the word ΣTHΛH you will find it equals 546. But the ST (Sigma-Tau) at the beginning of the word can be counted as the semi-compound letter, Stau, which has the value of 6.
Thus the value of ΣTHΛH is 52 (+ 666 = 718)

Grigori said:

This now leaves me with another quandary however. Our nice EARTH-AIR-WATER-FIRE order is only good for the northern hemisphere. If I was to move widdershins southern hemisphere version, I would be traveling EARTH-FIRE-WATER-AIR.

Unless, I just decide that since I am the Sun, that widdershins/deosil is irrelevant from my perspective and I just fudge it as I did for the LBRP. But, for a ritual that has such a solar base, perhaps it should be more important...

Click to expand...

I don't feel qualified to venture an opinion on this one. For obvious reasons I've never had to give much thought to technical problems in the southern hemisphere. I bet Ravenest will have a more informed opinion of this issue.
And don't forget, there's always the method of science.

One thing comes to mind though. To the best of my knowledge the old Ware-Ra temple members in New Zealand never altered anything. They stuck to the northern hemisphere Golden Dawn system lock, stock, and barrel.

Here's a funny point. Out of consistency with the perceived solar cycle shouldn't southern hemisphere clocks run anti-clockwise.

Grigori said:

See how much simpler life is above the equator

Click to expand...

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll mention that my ritual space is orriented practically due North. That's where I set up the stele, and that becomes my magical East. Whatever is behind me is my West. To my right is South. And my left counts as North.

Aeon418 said:

One thing comes to mind though. To the best of my knowledge the old Ware-Ra temple members in New Zealand never altered anything. They stuck to the northern hemisphere Golden Dawn system lock, stock, and barrel.

Click to expand...

Yes, I've been working off the same theory in the past, just pretend I'm in the northern hemisphere and forgetting about it.

Aeon said:

Here's a funny point. Out of consistency with the perceived solar cycle shouldn't southern hemisphere clocks run anti-clockwise.

Click to expand...

Yes! I was actually thinking, that since I'm much more in tune with the direction of the clock than the sun, that may be the more important way to go for me. Though I did once live in a house that had a backwards moving clock. For the first few weeks it was very confusing, and then it took me 6 months after I moved out to be able to adjust back to reading my forward moving watch again!

Aeon said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll mention that my ritual space is orriented practically due North. That's where I set up the Stele, and that becomes my magical East. Whatever is behind me is my West. To my right is South. And my left counts as North.

Click to expand...

Mine is set up with East in the East, but only because Boleskine would put my alter in the cupboard where I hide my mess, and the wall with the window has no space for an altar

Also thinking about changing element direction; if I were to start in the East with Earth, and move clockward, but move the elements around so the tetragrammaton order was maintained, that would put North/Fire/Equator in line, leave the passive elements on one pole and the actives on the other, and actually be a nice solution also I think.

Though am eager to hear from Ravenest

PS, I actually did have this discussion with Ravenest a while back regarding the LBRP and he said

Ravenest said:

First get familiar with the ritual, then understand why it is set up that way, then change it if need be: Like learning anything, get the basics down first before you start adapting.

Click to expand...

So I will start doing it as if I'm above the equator, and also wait to see if anyone in the south has experiences making changes they wish to share.

Before you make any changes remember that the traditional elemental order of the Golden Dawn LBRP spells out the name ADNI, the divine name of Malkuth.

It's a little bit convoluted. But here it is.

East - Air - Aleph

South - Fire - (Netzach/Venus) Daleth

West - Water - Nun (Fish)

North - Earth - Yod (Virgo - earth sign)