Talking about the GAME of Tarot

[philebus]

Originally Posted by Debra

Oh that's you! I wondered whose site this is. It's really interesting. Is that your voice, too?

Sadly, my voice is the one thing that I can't hide. I have considered looking at voice chaning software though.

This is one of two sites that I now own. The other is more recent and is the place I wear my scepticism on my sleave (it was borne out of a debate about scepticism here), while this one was, is, and will remain rather more neutral, for whoever might be interested in the games. Sadly, time and distractions have prevented me from doing a really good job of it yet.

[Debra]

Originally Posted by philebus

Sadly, my voice is the one thing that I can't hide. I have considered looking at voice chaning software though.

Don't even! Your voice is PERFECT for presenting; clear and clean-sounding.

I mean it.

[Teheuti]

Philebus, I read on your site that "Minchiate was last recorded to have been played in Milan during the early 1930s and it is now considered a dead game."

I believe Tarot/Tarock was always much more wide-spread. Do you think its adoption of French suits and substitution of animals or local scenes instead of the original set of Il Trionfos, along with large numbers, helped to keep it current? What else separated Tarot from Minchiate?

[Rosanne]

Well I have played the downloaded game and I must admit the Trumps are only descernable as a complete background mass with a large number (0-21) because you only see a small fraction of the image in your hand.

The Courts are clearer at a glance.

It kind of puzzles me why there has not been developed a system of bands of colour down the left or right side of cards for quick play. I understand not sitting there at the start and having to turn the cards upright is an advantage- but you can only see this small amount with the cards fanned- except the last card. (or on the computer in a row) The speed at which the hand is completed leaves no time to contemplate what is on the cards. I guess that is why the French Indices of hearts/clubs etc is better or the large numbers.
I imagine it is this ease of play that has kept the playing cards unchanged for many years.

~Rosanne

[philebus]

Originally Posted by Teheuti

Philebus, I read on your site that "Minchiate was last recorded to have been played in Milan during the early 1930s and it is now considered a dead game."

I believe Tarot/Tarock was always much more wide-spread. Do you think its adoption of French suits and substitution of animals or local scenes instead of the original set of Il Trionfos, along with large numbers, helped to keep it current? What else separated Tarot from Minchiate?

Minchiate at least, was widespread - there is evidence (you'll need to search the History Forum here for Pinkerton) that the French version of the game was being played in mid 19th century New Orleans.

The later pattern of tarot may have played a role in maintaining the game. However, the larger numbers on the trumps were centred rather than indexed - so I'm not sure that would have had much impact on the game (only the French packs have moved the number - Austrio/Hungarian designs still keep it central). Also, only the French packs have indices at all, so again, this is not something that has had impact.

However, given the additional cost of printing the cards, the adoption of French suits must have made a big impact. Forty of the cards could now be produced with a stencil rather than hand cut and coloured wood blocks, this made production much cheaper! As for the old trumps, they simply weren't, taken as a whole, a familiar theme outside of Italy, while the new trumps were interesting and often relevant to their customers.

It may also have immunised the games from later myths, allowing the games to move out and then back into fashion without complications from occult beliefs - it may be no coincidence that the French game's meteoric rise only began after they adopted the new patern. It English speaking countries, where there is no remembered history of the games, the situation is harder - in my experience people will object or hesitate to playing games with anything recognized as tarot, French suits or not.

As for the fading of Minchiate, it could be for not better reason than changing fashion. Depending upon the economics of the time, the additional cost may also have played a role.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Thanks Rosanne and Mary for the links to programs. I notice both of these are evaluation versions only - Rosanne's "TarotPro 99" gives you 24 games of evaluation, and Mary's "LeTarot" gives you three. After that, you'll have to buy it. BTW, I'm not complaining - the prices are reasonable (€29 and 25 respectively), and the authors deserve payment for their fine work in designing the programs.

I had a free game a few years ago, at least I think it was free, but it might also have been an evaluation version and I didn't play enough games to run out.

I'm sorry although I live in France, I haven't seen a lot of Tarot players and have never actually played with them. My experience is limited to family and friends who are not familiar with the game, so I have to teach them. Therefore I have no gossip or real traditions to mention.

Philebus - I believe it is in Genoa, circa 1930, that the last evidence of Minchiate play exists. There are packs with a tax-stamp of 1929 on cards made by the Genoese firm Solesio; in the 1930s some of Solesio's Minchiate cards were imported into the US for collectors there (see e.g. HGT, p. 326).

My deepest wish is for some enterprising programmer to make a CD to accompany Dummett and McLeod's "History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack", including a selection from every variation.

At the very least, I'd like someone to make a computer version of Bolognese Ottocento.

[zan_chan]

Originally Posted by Teheuti

There's an English language Macintosh & PC shareware game at http://www.letarot.net . I don't know why it doesn't get mentioned by all the game-players. I had it years ago and used to play it often but thought it no longer existed because none of the tarot game sites mentioned it and because I mixed up the address with Jean-Claude Flournoy's which is the same except for a .com .

Thanks a lot for that. I'm playing now - how interesting!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

I'm sorry although I live in France, I haven't seen a lot of Tarot players and have never actually played with them.

http://www.coin-de-france.com/carnet/pages/jeux.php

[carcinya]

I've been playing Tarot with my family since I was a kid (it's very popular in the south of France, where I was born), so if you have any questions, you can PM me.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Here is the free game I was talking about earlier - Objectif Tarot -
http://objectiftarot.net/

Only in French. It gives advice as you play, if you like (the "conseil" button). It can teach you the principles of the four handed game.

This video is narrated by a guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0DuM...eature=related

playing TaroBot
http://www.techniv.com/tarobot/

which is also only available in French. I haven't checked this one out yet.

In his comments he recommends "TaroTux" to English players, which seems to be the game here, available in English and French -
http://www.infos-du-net.com/telechar...0301-9018.html

I haven't downloaded it yet, but it is also free.