Marseilles Decks: Ace of Cups - Page 4

**tmgrl2** · 03-08-2004

Ii think of the sufferering Jodo refers to as the wine within the cup that is transformed into the "blood" shed that brings eternal life. Also the pouring out of love, is in itself a replenishing act.

terri

Little Baron · 03-08-2004

Thanks Terri; really useful information there (unlike my observations, lol). I am glad these threads are bumping too; I just recently got into learning with the Marseilles and they are a great source of information.

Cheers

Yaboot

**tmgrl2** · 03-08-2004

Yaboot, you go right on making those observations! That is the beauty of meditating on a card and saying what you see. My piece was a straight ol' translation from a book. I want to keep my French alive and share some of what's in the new book...just to put it out there.

It's the magic of people's own insights that are the underpinnings of a reading...that, life experience, and any knowledge we have accumulated along the way.

Diana just gave me my advice for the week...actually for maybe 78 weeks. I am to write 100, no more than 200 words, using life experience and my knowledge of the Tarot to date...NO BOOKS...
to describe each card, beginning with Le Bateleur. I did one last night. I was so pleased with what came forward. It is because of all that we take in here in various posts from others' points of view and insight, that we build an inner guide to call on when we become quiet and read the cards.

Keep 'em comin'

terri

smleite · 03-08-2004

I would say the Ace of Cups stands for the Grail’s castle, and through it, to the Grail. Of course, the Grail’s Castle is also a temple, and symbolizes any church, which is, above all, the container of the Eucharistic particle, or… the Grail. Temples are NOT supposed to be open, contrary to what Jodorowsky says; they are fortresses even when they are not fortified. The entrance of a temple is always, and by nature, a frontier between two worlds. Not everyone, or in every moment, is supposed to enter a temple – and less to cross the whole length of its nave, to the altar. Anyway, we can enter a temple but not having entered it in fact. It is a sacred place, where Heaven and Earth meet (and thus a passage), and only in the right disposition can one be really “inside” it, and not only physically so. The temple in the Ace of Cups is not open, but is calling us anyway. To get there and open its door, well, that will probably be as hard as it was for that valiant prince to fight the forces of evil trying to keep him from awakening (and marrying) Sleeping Beauty. And the feminine symbol of the mandorla-like entrance would fit here perfectly, too…

The little castle in the Ace of Cups is made of six towers, and, even if we understand that six can be read as a simplification of twelve (the 12 gates of Heavenly Jerusalem), the number has got to be read by itself. A double triangle, or the six-pointed star, is the symbol of union between the triangles of Heaven and Earth, representing the macrocosm. In http://hypermetrics.com/misc/six.html, we read that “6 is a triangular number, meaning that it is the sum of a group of consecutive integers starting with 1 (in this case, 1+2+3). Other triangular numbers are obviously 10, 15, 21, and so on”. Being the sum of 1, 2 and 3, it resumes the notions of Unity, Duality and Trinity.

In http://www.wisdomworld.org/additiona...fNumbers.html, we can also read, “The number six illustrates the six directions of extension of all solid bodies. The interlaced triangles picture the union of spirit and matter, male and female. The Pythagoreans considered this number as sacred to Venus, since "the union of the two sexes, and the spagyrisation of matter by triads are necessary to develop the generative force ... which is inherent in all bodies." (Rayon: Potency of the Pythagorean Triangles.)” Well, all this refers to the world God created in six days. And a perfect world it is: “6 is called a perfect number since it has the unusual property that the sum of all its factors (excluding itself) equals itself, i.e., 1+2+3 = 6. Only a handful of perfect numbers are known to exist.” So, this is what six is all about: it is “the sum of all its factors”.

Just another curiosity to add on the symbolic of this “liquid contained”: water crystallizes in the shape of a six-pointed star, the snowflake we all know.

I will also post a link to a text I wrote about the Cups suit; I think it fits here too, and also relates to the wonderful text by Ross, where the notion of a “water of life” is implicit. It also relates to Jewel-ry’s post on Christ’s blood, and on the alchemical transformation of water / milk / blood, or the mysteries of red and white…

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...228#post309228

When Yaboot001 talks about a feminine shape in the card, well, all is feminine in this symbol. Every symbolic container is a uterus, although this symbology can be referred to, and analyzed, in many different ways.

As to Camoin-Jodo’s interpretation… well, I guess we could all write a different interpretation using this same elements… and I do not really trust the colours and the minutiae of the drawings in the deck, at least not enough to accept them as simply “true”.

When I pull the Ace of Cups, I usually read it as an aim, a vision, a promise. As I wrote in a thread in Reading Exchange, it comes to me as an image of wholeness, a comprehensive and all-inclusive perspective of Life. The confirmation of my hopes and dreams. Compassion and support. And. above all, a promise of fulfilment.

**tmgrl2** · 04-08-2004

I do agree with you Silvia. I'm still out on the Camoin-Jodo and on Jodo's book. I merely wanted to translate some passages from the French so that our non-French speaking or reading members could get a feel for the book.

Actually, in their (Camoin's-Jodos') little slide show they do an overlay of the Star I believe with another card showing how the temple is "open" at certain times of the day to let in the light.

I'll post the link and even if someone doesn't speak French the moving slide show is interesting for this piece...:

http://camoin.com/diapo_rest_fr/iexp...iers/frame.htm

It's # 33 and #34...just click and wait to see the movement for each of these in the slide show...have to scroll down from #1.

I didn't want to take a stand on what Jodo said because it would be too detailed for me, but I have my own interpretation of color as it is. I usually do that in the moment.

My favorite TdM deck is the Hadar, although I find it interesting to discuss the Camoin and hear what they have to say.

terri

**Moonbow** · 05-08-2004

Hey I'm back in this thread!

I have the Hadar and Grimaud to look at so that is all I can go by.

To me the whole scene looks like a castle in the sky, (temple?). I can see the base as a pyramid, I see the red disk as the sun and the castle high above it.

BTW I also see Yaboots female. and to me it could be the Papesse or Virgin Mary. I also see Rusty's bird but both of these are only apparent in the Grimaud, not the Hadar. What you see as the woman's face (or birds beak) in the Grimaud, is a three coloured diamond in the Hadar. It is red, blue and yellow and according to Kriss hadar these colours represent the earthly, spiritual and devine planes.

I am still curious as to why on the Hadar deck there is a bird painted on the base of the cup, to me it almost looks like it could be an Egyptian hyroglyph.

**tmgrl2** · 05-08-2004

Just saw the bird, Moonbow!

Hadn't noticed that before...

I just ordered Kris Hadar's book, too. I figure if I'm going to translate, I should probably give a cross-reference to several authors...I don't take anyone's position. I just read them take parts I like...

terri

Parzival · 05-08-2004

Thanks to tmgrl2 for her summary of Monsiuer Jodorowsky's deep insights. He sees a summit of the Creator's Word above and a pyramidal base below and the blue palm leaves of suffering in the middle. He gives a magnificent general comment:" This ordinary cup, this simple temple , pours of itself into the world ." Yes, it is both Cup ( of the Grail I might add, ) and Temple ( of the Grail. ) It gives of itself unconditionally without depletion. It makes perfect sense that both Grail Cup and Temple or Castle combine here. And blue palm leaves or bird plumes in the middle places suffering or Christ-Phoenix where Above meets below, where Heaven and Earth meet. You said this better than I, Smleite-- we agree. This Image is sublime , beyond a mere gaming card.

**tmgrl2** · 05-08-2004

Well-said, Frank...

I just ordered Kris Hadar's book Mon Premier Livre de Tarot.

Hopefully, I'll quote snippets from several authors then...Klea, Jodorowsky, Sedillot and Hadar. My French is improving again!
They say it keeps our minds young....I need that..

I really don't side with one or the other regarding elements. I merely read everything and find images and ideas that resonate with my understanding. Hopefully, I'm doing justice to the French translations.

Diana was our master translator. Rusty translates well, also...and I believe jmd...others here, too, can translate, but may not have the books. So it's my little piece from time to time...

terri

Rusty Neon · 05-08-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by tmgrl2
I just ordered Kris Hadar's book Mon Premier Livre de Tarot.

Terri,

That book of Hadar's only discusses the major arcana. In that book, Hadar mentions that he'd cover the minor arcana in a future book. In every book by Hadar, if he covers the minor arcana at all, he just gives cursory meanings of the minor arcana in the way that the LWB to the Hadar deck does. I haven't seen any book by Hadar, at least yet, wherein he covers the minor arcana from the point of view of pips non-pictorial imagery, nor even from the point of view of number + suit.

tmgrl2 Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2004 Location: NY, US Posts: 8,359	Ii think of the sufferering Jodo refers to as the wine within the cup that is transformed into the "blood" shed that brings eternal life. Also the pouring out of love, is in itself a replenishing act. terri __________________ For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. ................Edgar Cayce

03-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #31

tmgrl2 Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2004 Location: NY, US Posts: 8,359	Yaboot, you go right on making those observations! That is the beauty of meditating on a card and saying what you see. My piece was a straight ol' translation from a book. I want to keep my French alive and share some of what's in the new book...just to put it out there. It's the magic of people's own insights that are the underpinnings of a reading...that, life experience, and any knowledge we have accumulated along the way. Diana just gave me my advice for the week...actually for maybe 78 weeks. I am to write 100, no more than 200 words, using life experience and my knowledge of the Tarot to date...NO BOOKS... to describe each card, beginning with Le Bateleur. I did one last night. I was so pleased with what came forward. It is because of all that we take in here in various posts from others' points of view and insight, that we build an inner guide to call on when we become quiet and read the cards. Keep 'em comin' terri __________________ For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. ................Edgar Cayce

03-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #33

smleite Citizen Join Date: 23 Mar 2004 Location: Lisboa, Portugal Posts: 503	I would say the Ace of Cups stands for the Grail’s castle, and through it, to the Grail. Of course, the Grail’s Castle is also a temple, and symbolizes any church, which is, above all, the container of the Eucharistic particle, or… the Grail. Temples are NOT supposed to be open, contrary to what Jodorowsky says; they are fortresses even when they are not fortified. The entrance of a temple is always, and by nature, a frontier between two worlds. Not everyone, or in every moment, is supposed to enter a temple – and less to cross the whole length of its nave, to the altar. Anyway, we can enter a temple but not having entered it in fact. It is a sacred place, where Heaven and Earth meet (and thus a passage), and only in the right disposition can one be really “inside” it, and not only physically so. The temple in the Ace of Cups is not open, but is calling us anyway. To get there and open its door, well, that will probably be as hard as it was for that valiant prince to fight the forces of evil trying to keep him from awakening (and marrying) Sleeping Beauty. And the feminine symbol of the mandorla-like entrance would fit here perfectly, too… The little castle in the Ace of Cups is made of six towers, and, even if we understand that six can be read as a simplification of twelve (the 12 gates of Heavenly Jerusalem), the number has got to be read by itself. A double triangle, or the six-pointed star, is the symbol of union between the triangles of Heaven and Earth, representing the macrocosm. In http://hypermetrics.com/misc/six.html, we read that “6 is a triangular number, meaning that it is the sum of a group of consecutive integers starting with 1 (in this case, 1+2+3). Other triangular numbers are obviously 10, 15, 21, and so on”. Being the sum of 1, 2 and 3, it resumes the notions of Unity, Duality and Trinity. In http://www.wisdomworld.org/additiona...fNumbers.html, we can also read, “The number six illustrates the six directions of extension of all solid bodies. The interlaced triangles picture the union of spirit and matter, male and female. The Pythagoreans considered this number as sacred to Venus, since "the union of the two sexes, and the spagyrisation of matter by triads are necessary to develop the generative force ... which is inherent in all bodies." (Rayon: Potency of the Pythagorean Triangles.)” Well, all this refers to the world God created in six days. And a perfect world it is: “6 is called a perfect number since it has the unusual property that the sum of all its factors (excluding itself) equals itself, i.e., 1+2+3 = 6. Only a handful of perfect numbers are known to exist.” So, this is what six is all about: it is “the sum of all its factors”. Just another curiosity to add on the symbolic of this “liquid contained”: water crystallizes in the shape of a six-pointed star, the snowflake we all know. I will also post a link to a text I wrote about the Cups suit; I think it fits here too, and also relates to the wonderful text by Ross, where the notion of a “water of life” is implicit. It also relates to Jewel-ry’s post on Christ’s blood, and on the alchemical transformation of water / milk / blood, or the mysteries of red and white… http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...228#post309228 When Yaboot001 talks about a feminine shape in the card, well, all is feminine in this symbol. Every symbolic container is a uterus, although this symbology can be referred to, and analyzed, in many different ways. As to Camoin-Jodo’s interpretation… well, I guess we could all write a different interpretation using this same elements… and I do not really trust the colours and the minutiae of the drawings in the deck, at least not enough to accept them as simply “true”. When I pull the Ace of Cups, I usually read it as an aim, a vision, a promise. As I wrote in a thread in Reading Exchange, it comes to me as an image of wholeness, a comprehensive and all-inclusive perspective of Life. The confirmation of my hopes and dreams. Compassion and support. And. above all, a promise of fulfilment. Last edited by smleite; 03-08-2004 at 21:42.

03-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #34

tmgrl2 Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2004 Location: NY, US Posts: 8,359	I do agree with you Silvia. I'm still out on the Camoin-Jodo and on Jodo's book. I merely wanted to translate some passages from the French so that our non-French speaking or reading members could get a feel for the book. Actually, in their (Camoin's-Jodos') little slide show they do an overlay of the Star I believe with another card showing how the temple is "open" at certain times of the day to let in the light. I'll post the link and even if someone doesn't speak French the moving slide show is interesting for this piece...: http://camoin.com/diapo_rest_fr/iexp...iers/frame.htm It's # 33 and #34...just click and wait to see the movement for each of these in the slide show...have to scroll down from #1. I didn't want to take a stand on what Jodo said because it would be too detailed for me, but I have my own interpretation of color as it is. I usually do that in the moment. My favorite TdM deck is the Hadar, although I find it interesting to discuss the Camoin and hear what they have to say. terri __________________ For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. ................Edgar Cayce

04-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #35

Moonbow Jougen no tsuki Join Date: 08 Nov 2003 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 9,010	Hey I'm back in this thread! I have the Hadar and Grimaud to look at so that is all I can go by. To me the whole scene looks like a castle in the sky, (temple?). I can see the base as a pyramid, I see the red disk as the sun and the castle high above it. BTW I also see Yaboots female. and to me it could be the Papesse or Virgin Mary. I also see Rusty's bird but both of these are only apparent in the Grimaud, not the Hadar. What you see as the woman's face (or birds beak) in the Grimaud, is a three coloured diamond in the Hadar. It is red, blue and yellow and according to Kriss hadar these colours represent the earthly, spiritual and devine planes. I am still curious as to why on the Hadar deck there is a bird painted on the base of the cup, to me it almost looks like it could be an Egyptian hyroglyph. __________________ Insh'Allah Bukra Mumkin

05-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #36

Little Baron Citizen Join Date: 18 Aug 2002 Location: UK Posts: 9,963	Thanks Terri; really useful information there (unlike my observations, lol). I am glad these threads are bumping too; I just recently got into learning with the Marseilles and they are a great source of information. Cheers Yaboot

03-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #32

Parzival Citizen Join Date: 26 Apr 2004 Location: Maryland, U.S.A. Posts: 796	Marseilles Decks : Ace of Cups Thanks to tmgrl2 for her summary of Monsiuer Jodorowsky's deep insights. He sees a summit of the Creator's Word above and a pyramidal base below and the blue palm leaves of suffering in the middle. He gives a magnificent general comment:" This ordinary cup, this simple temple , pours of itself into the world ." Yes, it is both Cup ( of the Grail I might add, ) and Temple ( of the Grail. ) It gives of itself unconditionally without depletion. It makes perfect sense that both Grail Cup and Temple or Castle combine here. And blue palm leaves or bird plumes in the middle places suffering or Christ-Phoenix where Above meets below, where Heaven and Earth meet. You said this better than I, Smleite-- we agree. This Image is sublime , beyond a mere gaming card. __________________ By the use of images, the wise among soothsayers expressed how divinity is seen-Plotinus

05-08-2004	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #38

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