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What is the historical role of the Grand Etteila in reading with minors

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What is the historical role of the Grand Etteila in reading with minors


Hello dear historians:

Rusty Neon has been helping me decipher ununsual card meanings for spirit of flowers deck by refering me to pre-RWS Grand Etteila meanings.

In view of all our wonderful debates on the Ur-tarot, I have been thirsting to know more about this 19th century deck, what its place is in the development of the tradition of reading with 78 (not just 22) cards, what is its role in the development of some kind of concensus of card meanings for the minors, and any thing else you can think of important to say.
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For a discussion of some(?) of these subjects you might try: http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_1.htm

For an illustration of the basic types and some ideas on the relationship with the Egyptian decks (my favourites) see: http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Ma.../historye.html

I like the Etteilla - Eventually I went for the Grimaud "Grand" one

HTH,

Macavity
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hi firemaiden ... You would probably find the Etteilla articles on jim revak's website useful.

http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_2.htm
http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm

The site includes exact quotations (in English translation, in the case of French origin) of the divinatory meanings from the School of Etteilla, Mathers (from a non Golden Dawn source), and Waite (from the Pictorial Key to the Tarot).

The Etteilla DMs (card keywords and divinatory synonyms) there correspond almost exactly with those in the pamphlet that I have that accompanies the Dusserre photoreproduction of a circa 1840 Grand Etteilla deck, although my pamphlet has some DMs that Revak's source doesn't.

The Grimaud version of the Grand Etteilla deck has the same images as in the Dusserre but the some of the titles in Grimaud are different from the original titles as found in the Dusserre.

Those Grimaud titles generally correspond to one of the School of Etteilla divinatory synonyms. The first listed DM for each upright and reversed Etteilla card in Revak's site is generally the original title (rather than the Grimaud title).

The Grand Etteilla deck is sometimes referred to by collectors and historians as an Etteilla I deck. There are Etteilla II and III decks as well. In this regard, see:

http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Ma.../historye.html
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In Anglo-American tarot, the divinatory meanings (DMs) of the School of Etteilla were very influential in determining the DMs of the small cards (Two to Ten) of the minor arcana. We still also sometimes hear echos of the Etteilla DMs in modern day DMs of the court cards.

The Golden Dawn meanings for the minor arcana in the GD manuscript, Book 'T', are based in large part on DMs from the School of Etteilla. The School of Etteilla's DMs are drawn from a variety of Continental European cartomancy sources. However, the School of Etteilla's DMs are not an exhaustive compendium of all available DMs from all available Continental European DMs.

There are some other DMs (for minor arcana) listed in Golden Dawn materials (or in Mathers' non-GD material) that are not found in compendium of DMs of the School of Etteilla. Query as to whether those 'other' listed DMs (listed in Mathers' non GD source cited in Revak's internet articles or listed in the GD's Book T) are derived through the GD's system of astrological/qabalistic correspondences. Rumour has it that those 'other' DMs (i.e., non-Etteilla DMs) derive from from a Continental European cartomancy DMs not found in the compendium of the School of Etteilla.

The DMs given by Waite in _The Pictorial Key to the Tarot_ (PKT) are also drawn from School of Etteilla DMs and adopt some of Mathers' DMs as well. The cards of the RWS illustrate one, two and often several of those PKT divinatory meanings. Waite didn't give any GD-specific DMs in his book (because he didn't wish to break his GD oath of secrecy), but the RWS illustrations of any given small card of the minor arcana are consistent with one or more GD meanings as well as one or more meanings given in PKT. To the extent that PKT gives a DM that's not Etteilla's or Mathers', where does the DM derive from? From a Continental European cartomancy DM not found in the compendium of the School of Etteilla?
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Additional reviews/version buying hints


If you wanted a French version of Etteilla III and a small look and a short introduction, this version was reviewed by Gina Pace--a very general review, but she did include pictures:
http://www.wicce.com/1890egyptien.html

I include an excerpt explaining the Etteilla III and hopefully a clear explanation between the Jeu des Dames of Editions Dussiere and the Lo Scarabeo Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot, in case you want to buy them:

My copy says:Tarot Egyptien: Reproduction d'un Jeu de 78 cartes edite vers 1870 DONT L'Original est conserve a la bibiotechque Nationale de Paris...it's reproduced by Editions Dussere. Paris, tel 589.40.21 Maitres Cartiers Boechat Freres (made in France) and I got it through Daniel Onafray in France through a Tarotpassages.com link. The LWB is titled: Tarot Egyptien: Grand Je de l'Oracle des Dames Notice Explicative Methode d'Etteilla et du Livre de Thot. I've called this deck Jeu des Dames in the past, but it is also known as Grand Etteilla III--yes, this is the third version..

The Lo Scarabeo booklet says "Five booklets entitled Maiere de recreer ave le Jeu de Cartes nomees Tarot (How to relax with the card game Tarot) were published in Amsterdam and Paris between 1783 and 1787 by Jean Francois Alliete (1724 ca 1792). The 1789 tarot deck seems not to have survived entirely, but a reprint by Melchior Montmignon D'Oducet, a student of Etteilla had a complete version printed again in 1804. This is Grand Etteilla II.

Giordano Berti says the text of Julia Orsini (1840) came with all 78 cards of the D'Oudoucet deck with the following variations: Number 1, Chaos, replaced Light. In number 15 the priest was replaced with a magician in front of a table on which there was a mannequin. In number 21 there is a bearded man with an evil look on the four wheeled chariot and titled "The African Despot." Number 78 became "Folle of the Alchemist". (Mari's note: This looks like the fool). This was the Grand Etteilla II...and now I'll get to my version, the III.

The Version III, also accompanied with the Julia Orsini text, was entitled Grand Jeu de Oracle des Dames and included medieval style figures. Also the difference between II and III---in III, Prudence (12) became a young girl with amirror with a serpent holding on the handle and Temperance (no. 10) became a woman holding a horse's bit. The captions on the cards do not differ between the II and III.

Julia Orsini's text is said to have influenced Mathers, Papus, Crowley, Thhylbus and "the editor of Lo Scarabeo's "Book of Thoth Etteila Tarot, Rodrigo Tebani." Giordano Berti contributed the written introduction.

----------------------------------------
By the way, Lo Scarabeo also has an earlier Etteila-style/influenced tarot called Ancient Esoteric...Diane Wilkes reviews it, and Mark Filpas has a similar deck titled Italian Cartomancia...I don't know if it is the Etteilla II style, as these are Italian versions of the Etteilla.

http://www.tarotpassages.com/esoteric.htm
http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Ma...s/cartoma.html

Diane Wilkes of Tarot Passages also reviews the Grimaud version...and you can see all the cards of that version on www.tarot.com. If people have time to compare or follow James Revak's discussion, this online version might be helpful to look at for study.

Best wishes,

Mari H
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This thread is really interesting and I've followed the links and tried to read what I can. Of all the areas of Tarot, Etteilla is something that I know practically nothing about; so it's useful to try to catch up!
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Ah!! Thank you ! You guys are amazing.

I looked at the Revak site: fantastic: all my questions are answered there, and more. Well, I have my reading cut out for me then don't I. :-)
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Some other things that occur to me:

The (e.g.) Grimaud Grand Etteilla I have comes with a rather comprehensive Little White Book that has a rather complete (and amazing!) "divinatory method" with exciting card names like: "Hiram's Freemasonry" and "The Order of the Mopses" It provides upright and reversed meanings but also "isolated" and "near" ones. The card meanings are modified when the card are NEAR other (very!) specific cards.

Question: Was this the (infamous?) Madame LeNormande's idea - or some other exclusive French divinatory method? What was the "Big Game of the Ladies"? Does she sing at the end? ISTR I have seen similar ideas used with REAL Marseille decks?!?

Anyone have any ideas what is with the yellow panels on the minors. SOME of them show (vaguely) astrological figures. Many are just blank - Didn't M. Etteilla get time to finish them? The oddest ones are on the Sword suite. They look like arrangements of... "nails" (sic!) which might have some (rather obscure) relationship to the number of swords?!? You have to find some pictures for yourselves

The Grimaud deck is rather (imo) pretty. The artwork is rather more delicate than the Marseille and has a certain pleasing simplicity. Still having notions of getting the new LoS "Book of Thoth" (qv) too sometimes...

Macavity
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