reconsidering a cathar connection

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by Huck

If one looks for a suppressed group in the time of the older Louis XIV, then there are the Huguenottes, who leave France to live elsewhere around 1480. But all we can see is, that the Tarot-des-Marseilles wasn't suppressed, but profited by some political centralization in the playing card production below Louis XIV, who organized himself a lot of regular playing-card-evenings, which actually served as a tool to control the rich nobility. Actually Louis promoted gambling, at least for some time.

The point is, of course, that in looking for a secret purpose to the cards, that they wouldn't have been suppressed but, rather, spread everywhere.

Anyway, here's another tidbit in support of my crack-pot Rosicrucian "theory":

A.E. Waite, The Real History of the Rosicrucians (1887), p. 388:
"The first appearance of Rosicrucianism in France was in the year 1623, when the following mysterious placard was affixed to the walls of Paris:--"We, the deputies of our chief college of the Brethren of the Rosy Cross, now sojourning, visible and invisible, in this town, do teach, in the name of the Most High, towards whom the hearts of the Sages turn, every science, without either books, symbols, or signs, and we speak the language of the country in which we tarry, that we may extricate our fellow-men from error and destruction." [At least four versions of such a placard are recorded.]

and from Waite's probable source:
"A general assembly of Rosicrucians was reported to have been held in Lyons on the 23rd June 1623. [G. Naudé, Instruction à la France sur la verité de l'histoire des Freres de la Roze-Croix (1623) p. 31.] This was a virulant anti-Rosicrucian work.

According to Jean-Pascal Ruggiu, Imperator of Ahathoor Temple in Paris, "In France, a Rosicrucian lodge of Aureae Crucis Fraternitatis was founded in 1624."

Fun! Isn't it? A connection with Lyons. Now all we have to do is connect the Rosicrucians with card-makers.

[Huck]

Hm ...

the begin of the Rosenkreutzer was in the writing of Johann Valentin Andreae. Who is kept rather short in English wikipedia ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanne...ntinus_Andreae
... with doubts about the authorship of Andrae
And it notes a first version of the text in Strassbourg 1616

However, German wikipedia is longer in his article about Andreae

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanne...ntinus_Andreae
... and it notes as the first edition
Fama Fraternitatis oder Entdeckung der Brüderschafft des löblichen Ordens deß RosenCreutzes
and this is a version, you can look on at ...

http://ia700308.us.archive.org//load...ati00andr.djvu

... and the impressum shows



... only one name (beside the printer Andream Hünefeldt, which is nearer to the bottom) and that's H(?). Haselmeyern (which means in context Haselmeyer).

Haselmeyer is not unknown, here his biography ... he was send to the galleys in 1612, which usually should have meant death, but Haselmeyer was released 1617. But he was not H. Haselmeyer, but Adam Haselmeyer.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PCN...page&q&f=false

So Haselmeyer (also Haslmair, Haslmayr) lived dangerous and couldn't have done anything in 1615 (although it's said, that he was able to write letters) ...

... ah, here is a better (English) study ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=-0R...page&q&f=false

... and according this the first print has been in 1614., which makes sense, cause the text has it with the 120 years, and according this Christian Rosenkreutz died in 1484 in the proud age of 106 years and 1484 + 120 years makes 1614.

Well, Cassel and Danzig are not Lyon, likely not reachable locations from French perspective. So it's likely Johann Valentin Andreae, who was the author, and it's understandable, that Andreae didn't give his name, cause friend Haselmeyer was already at the galleys and likely Andreae had no interest to follow him.

Andrae himself shall have said to have written something (likely a sort of basic text, which later was modified) 1602/03 (Andreae 16-17 years old), this analyzing author ...

http://www.frommann-holzboog.de/site...0kes7m82c37hu3

... comes to the conclusion, that this in reality might have happened 1605-07. In 1612 the above noted reflected the text in an 8 pages manuscript, which was printed March 1612.

However, according the text Christian Rosenkreuz had announced his coming back on 120 years and according the text Christian Rosenkreutz died in 1484 in the proud age of 106 years and 1484 + 120 years makes 1604.

Anyway, I'm not interested to lose myself in these details ...

Andreae was member of a literary society called "Fuchtbringende Gesellschaft" in Weimar in the year 1617, if anybody could be called Rosenkreuzer at this time then it possibly would be this group ... a long list of participating members ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruchtb...e_Gesellschaft

and better documented in

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruchtb...e_Gesellschaft
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...n_Gesellschaft

and everybody had a nick-name and Andreae had the name "der Mürbe", which I would translate with some freedom as "extra-dry" (likely indicating, that he had a very dry sort of humor), and the whole was called also Palmenorden ("Palm Order") and as emblem was chosen the coconut tree. So actually these were the true "knights of the coconut" (which in translation had been the name for the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail").

Well, but I'm not sure that Andreae had been a founding member ...

[added later: he was not, but he entered very late in 1446, as I've read now ... so one can forget about the possible importance of the Fruchtbringende Gesellschaft]]

In his later age he considered the Rosencreuzer text just a "sin of his youth" and became rather sincere, leaving some youthful irony behind. He personally suffered considerably in the 30-years-war, Würtemberg, where he lived and worked, was considerably devastated.

Anyway, it's interesting, that just Weimar (founding location) later became the center of the developing German literature with Goethe, Herder etc..

[foolish]

I was under the impression that the Rosicrusians had distinct symbols which they used (i.e. rose and cross) along with a wealth of Egyptian iconography, as witnessed in their temple decorations. Wouldn't this bring up questions for you as to why these wouldn't be seen in the tarot?

[Debra]

Originally Posted by Teheuti

Fun! Isn't it? A connection with Lyons. Now all we have to do is connect the Rosicrucians with card-makers.

A joke, Mary?

Spiritual societies with European roots do have all sorts of connections--overlapping membership, shared inspirations, beliefs, images and rituals, etc.

I can't think of where else in this forum considerations of older tarot imagery + historical possibilities would be more at home than right here.

I feel that iconographic explorations like foolish's, Rosanne's and others'--whether or not they are historically sound--are right in the spirit of contemporary tarot use and why many of us love these cards so much.

[Teheuti]

It's not really a joke in that there are some interesting connections between playing cards and the Rosicrucians - at least one which I will make later on my blog. However, all my evidence is circumstantial and so makes the theory interesting but not very plausible historically. It's very much in the realm of "out there."

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by foolish

I was under the impression that the Rosicrusians had distinct symbols which they used (i.e. rose and cross) along with a wealth of Egyptian iconography, as witnessed in their temple decorations. Wouldn't this bring up questions for you as to why these wouldn't be seen in the tarot?

I wouldn't think that the Rosicrucians would have designed the cards, but only that they may have seen something in the symbolism that fit with their philosophy. Big difference and still a wild shot.

[Yves Le Marseillais]

Originally Posted by Huck

We've Jacques Vievil as the first similar-to-Tarot-des-Marseilles producer in Paris c. 1650 and that's likely a man from Belgium.

Around a 1655 a court physician expressed the opinion, that Tarot cards were from Germany, not from France.

In 1637 a half-Italian Gonzaga-princess urges, that a local French writer publishes the first French Tarot rules. The same writer in 1656/57 expresses the opinion, that earlier Tarot was of greater interest than nowadays (which means 1657). Likely this means, that as long this half-Italian princess was dominant to him, the interest in Tarot was big, but later not. The princess had disappeared in Paris in 1645 to become the Polish queen.

If one looks for a suppressed group in the time of the older Louis XIV, then there are the Huguenottes, who leave France to live elsewhere around 1480. But all we can see is, that the Tarot-des-Marseilles wasn't suppressed, but profited by some political centralization in the playing card production below Louis XIV, who organized himself a lot of regular playing-card-evenings, which actually served as a tool to control the rich nobility. Actually Louis promoted gambling, at least for some time.

In a critical phase of the political development (around 1659) the army of Louis attacked Marseille ... but the earlier Tarot-des-Marseilles developments took place in Paris (Vieville-Noblet). Later appeared the real Tarot-de-Marseille (Camoin has 1672 for the Francois Choisson), but then Marseille was under control of Louis XIV.

Perhaps our friend Yves Le Marseillais has some better information about this phase than me.

Hello Huck and all,

About begining of cards in Marseille, we are only sure that in 1601 Marseille was not yet autorised to produce cards by French state.

But.... Marseille cardmakers and other towns was already producing cards illegaly according documents. See below.

In 1631 French state legalised this abnormal situation and added Marseille and some citys to the official list of citys.

"1601, l'Etat ne donne le droit de fabriquer des cartes qu'à certaines villes: Seul 6 villes sont autorisées à fabriquer des cartes: Rouen, Toulouse, Lyon, Thiers, Limoges et Troyes.
Mais d'autres villes passent outre: Dijon, Langres, Nantes, Le Puy, Romans en Isère, Valence, Marseille et «toutes autres villes défendues».
Faisant preuve de réalisme, en 1631 Le Gouvernement ajoute à la liste: Orléans, Angers, Romans en Isère et Marseille."

Concerning François Chosson bear in mind that as per D'Allemagne, he was noted as cardmaker only from 1734 to 1756.
He legaly gave a copy of his wrapper (as per legislation), on21st April 1736 to adequate official bodys.

For me his deck is dated from this period as per documents and his STYLE of course.
Not before 1700 in my opinion.
But BEFORE Conver and this is an important point I think.

Researchs have to continued on this various points anyway.

Best

YLM

[foolish]

Yves,
That's a very good point about the dates of legal card makers. The official dates only show when the card makers were licensed; not when cards were actually first produced. It might be reasonable to assume that card makers were "practicing" their trade after learning how it was done, before attempting to register for a license. In this case, we might also ask where they acquired their training.

[Yves Le Marseillais]

Originally Posted by foolish

Yves,
That's a very good point about the dates of legal card makers. The official dates only show when the card makers were licensed; not when cards were actually first produced. It might be reasonable to assume that card makers were "practicing" their trade after learning how it was done, before attempting to register for a license. In this case, we might also ask where they acquired their training.

Good evening Robert and all,

Yes dates talks about cardmakers activity period.

But putting a precise date and name about who and when firstly printed a card is probably impossible.

It's like finding name and date of first man (or woman ?) who firstly painted an oil painting.

Human breed probably appeared on Earth in various points of this planet at not exact moment.

Same for cards I suppose. This is how it works for Life since beginnings of Ages.

Before becoming a "Master" cardmaker (un Maitre Cartier) term who means being a boss of a business involved in card making, this man learned from another cardman in his workshop for many years.
Apprenctice then compagnon he passed all necessary steps of this activity.
I works on this specific area as to get real connections about ways and names of this training for main cardmakers.

For exemple some famous cardmakers from Marseille camed from other régions of France.
Same for some Swiss famous cardmakers who camed from Lyon France area.

In due time I will informs our "Communauty" about some finds I made.

Salutations

YLM

[Huck]

A report to a (real) political protest playing card deck in 1719 ... involved are French Huguenots.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~pvrooden/Jo/2010a.pdf