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PAMUYA 
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Thank you for your responces: Using a RWS type card: Revenge never came to mind, still having a hard time seeing that when it comes to the Judgement card, I too would think of revenge more of Justice.

This reading was a long time ago, I must check back and see what became of this.

Again, thank you!
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Amanda_04 
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Judgement is ruled by Pluto, which also rules Scorpio.

Now tell me, which sign would be more prone to revenge, Scorpio or Libra?

Pluto (according to Ciro Marchetti) "...creates and destroys. There is a strong shadow side to Pluto that includes the underworld, obsession, coercion, and crime."

I'm completely clueless as to how you all see revenge in Justice! I must be missing something... Justice is blind, no mercy.

The concept of Justice (to me) is a part of Judgement.

Look at the utilitarianism ethical principal for example:

"There are two types of utilitarianism, act utilitarianism [Judgement] and rule utilitarianism [Justice]. In act utilitarianism, a person performs the acts that benefit the most people, regardless of personal feelings or the societal constraints such as laws. Rule utilitarianism, however, takes into account the law and is concerned with fairness. A rule utilitarian seeks to benefit the most people but through the fairest and most just means available. Therefore, added benefits of rule utilitarianism are that it values justice and includes beneficence at the same time (1,2)."

So, we're talking about revenge here (a negative of Judgement, in my opinion)- so the opposite of doing whatever act benefits the most people regardless of personal feelings or societal constraints.

Judgement = moral
Justice = principle

...and the two overlap. Morals are personal; principles are generally accepted morals.

Revenge is taking matters into one's own hands, seeking through passion to correct a "wrong" that was committed in the eyes of the one judging.

Justice is the part of Judgement that keeps our morals in check and everyone on a somewhat similar page. So, as much as you may want to strangle your ex-husband for sleeping with your best friend, you won't do it because you know you'll go to jail. Or, you know, you will do it because you feel strongly enough that you would be "right" to strangle your ex-husband for his terrible crime against you, and no amount of justice will stop you from righting that wrong for yourself. Revenge would overstep the boundaries of Justice in the sense that, if you strangle him, you don't feel or aren't thinking about his right to live... not fair in the generally accepted sense of the principle, but totally fair in your own eyes for what he did to you. There may not be an outwardly apparent consequence for your actions with Judgement, but there probably will be with Justice. Am I making sense?

When we have feelings, we are having a response to something. Having a fiery feeling of Judgement towards someone lends to a strongly passionate feeling of some kind. So, in my eyes, either the person has p*ssed you off to where you feel your deep sense of YOU has been personally trampled on, and you want them to pay, or in a positive sense- maybe this person evoked passion for your own life again within you, just by being in their presence. They make you feel like, "I want to LIVE again!"

That's why fire is so dangerous, and why I see revenge in Judgement, not Justice. But that's just my .02 cents anyway.
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Fostha 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_04/
Justice is the part of Judgement that keeps our morals in check and everyone on a somewhat similar page. So, as much as you may want to strangle your ex-husband for sleeping with your best friend, you won't do it because you know you'll go to jail. Or, you know, you will do it because you feel strongly enough that you would be "right" to strangle your ex-husband for his terrible crime against you, and no amount of justice will stop you from righting that wrong for yourself. Revenge would overstep the boundaries of Justice in the sense that, if you strangle him, you don't feel or aren't thinking about his right to live... not fair in the generally accepted sense of the principle, but totally fair in your own eyes for what he did to you. There may not be an outwardly apparent consequence for your actions with Judgement, but there probably will be with Justice. Am I making sense?

When we have feelings, we are having a response to something. Having a fiery feeling of Judgement towards someone lends to a strongly passionate feeling of some kind. So, in my eyes, either the person has p*ssed you off to where you feel your deep sense of YOU has been personally trampled on, and you want them to pay, or in a positive sense- maybe this person evoked passion for your own life again within you, just by being in their presence. They make you feel like, "I want to LIVE again!"

That's why fire is so dangerous, and why I see revenge in Judgement, not Justice. But that's just my .02 cents anyway.
Strangle her????......I'd only wanna know why she never showed up bloody sooner to just take him away and get him out of my hair,I cant stand his intrusiveness and the s**t he lands my family in.
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Ana's Song 
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I have to respectfully disagree with Amanda on the concept of Judgement = revenge. I think both Justice and Judgement are too... dispassionate... cards to have the depth of dark feelings that bring upon revenge. Now I know this contradicts what I said in my post about Judgement invoking depth of feelings But my reading of what you say about revenge is that this is a more cold-hearted, logical aspect of seeking and achieving (?) revenge. Therefore I'd say the Magician because he is power and the abuse of power in seeking revenge. The Magician is an action card, he is fully aware of what he's doing, he's centred and I'd definitely say that if you're out for revenge you'd be fully centred on that goal practically to the exclusion of all else.

Agree with your comments re. Pluto's dark side but I do think the 'worse' aspects of that are more connected with the potential bloody-mindedness of the Magician. If a stereotypical Scorpio/Pluto was out to get you, then they wouldn't botch it up, it would be a slow burn type of thing with lots of planning, taking a long view of things, rather assassin-like in my mind. Definitely the Magician in my opinion
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Amanda_04 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana's Song
I have to respectfully disagree with Amanda on the concept of Judgement = revenge. I think both Justice and Judgement are too... dispassionate...
I respect your opinion, but I've got to ask what card you think would show a crime of passion then, if not a fiery Judgement card? I ask because I think revenge is a "crime of passion". I would think the Magician would try to pull the wool over on someone because he likes that he can, not out of a passion to punish.
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Fostha 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda_04
I respect your opinion, but I've got to ask what card you think would show a crime of passion then, if not a fiery Judgement card? I ask because I think revenge is a "crime of passion". I would think the Magician would try to pull the wool over on someone because he likes that he can, not out of a passion to punish.
Thats how I'd see the magician too,not at all interested in revenge,its merely capability and entertainment,nothing more.
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YDM42 
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I agree with Amanda, because this just happened to me, I kept getting judgement as to how someone feels about me, I thought it had to do with his family responsiblities, and he was actually thinking..."I'm going to get her back..." he actually slipped up and said it...so I saw judgement card a lot, as well as justice and six of pentacles.

I see judgement as revenge because the person is being judge and jury and not partial at all...as you reap you sow with them.

Just is "JUST" fair, even not always the best but non-bias- almost non judgemental, it is based on the law, not on ones judgement.
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PAMUYA 
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Is there someone else who could explain how Judgement could be thought of as revenge? The explainations so far has not convinced me. I do not see this in that card, the astrology connected stated does not seem to fit. I see in this card(RWS type, Legacy of the Devine) an honest appraisal, transforming, answering a need, feeling cleansed and refreshed...along these lines. A copy of the tarot card enclosed.

If the card was reversed? Maybe, But the card wasn't reversed in this reading.
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Amanda_04 
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It is just one possible interpretation, revenge is one of my opinions and I can see it in that card. One person being bigger than the others and having control over whether the others get relief or not... in the negative sense, yes that's like having one big grudge and this card is showing the possibility of one person setting the others "free" (or not).
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Faolainn Storm 
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I would see revenge as Justice reversed. Justice is about balancing the scales, getting back what was taken from you, and evening things out. Revenge is about going further, not just getting back what you lost, but taking more or doing more. Not just punishing the person for doing wrong, but making that punishment so severe that they won't (or can't) do it again.

To me, Judgement is beyond this. It is seeing the person who wronged you as a damaged soul, and forgiving them for the actions. Maybe not forgetting what they did, but understanding why they did it, and forgiving them for their actions.

So Judgement as Person A feelings towards Person B - I would suggest the Person A has risen above the situation, and can now see clearly what was done, and why, and has reached some sort of understanding and acceptance of the situation. Now Person A can move on, putting the situation behind them. This may mean putting Person B behind them as well, but it may not.

And I can see Nisaba's point that this may involve Person B opening up in a deep way about something, which Person A has to listen to, and come to understand, before the relationship can move forward to the next level.

I don't see revenge. But that's me.
FS

ETA: Having read the last post - I guess I could see elements of revenge in a reversed Judgement. The revenge aspect of not forgiving someone, not letting go and letting them (and yourself) move on in life. Especially if you could forgive, and don't really have any reason to hold something over them. But it is not exactly what I think when I hear the word revenge, but I guess is it a form of emotional revenge. But it would have to be a reversed or otherwise negatively aspected Judgement.



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Last edited by Faolainn Storm; 23-10-2010 at 12:31.
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