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Thank you for the links Huck. I see that Jeromes' Prologus Galeatus had a canon of 22 books - or 24 (?!)

".....in which Jerome described an Old Testament canon of 22 books, which he found represented in the 22-letter Hebrew alphabet. Alternatively, he numbered the books as 24, which he described as the 24 elders in the Book of Revelation casting their crowns before the Lamb.

Perhaps that's where Betts got his idea from.

Quote:
foolish One of the true tests of a theory of the tarot is whether it is all-inclusive - that is, whether ALL of the cards fit into the mold - and whether all of the images in the cards can be easily explained within that context. i think betts has a real problem with the fact that some cards really don't fit into this theory.
I am in agreement with this.


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Betts bible quotes seem most like the ASV but with odd differences.

(similar to) American Standard Version (1901)
http://asvbible.com/revelation/1.htm

(so probably one of these) The ASV was the basis of four revisions. They were the Revised Standard Version (1946-1952/1971), the Amplified Bible (1965), the New American Standard Bible (1963-1971/1995), and the Recovery Version (1999). A fifth revision is in the making, the World English Bible. The ASV was also the basis for Kenneth N. Taylor's Bible paraphrase, The Living Bible, which was published in 1971.
___________
And, a weird thing I discovered is that (in my copy) after page 353 there are two blank pages, then two printed, then two blank, and this pattern continues through to the back; 2 pgs copy, 2 pgs blank. 16 blank pages altogether. So, perhaps he referenced which version in the back somewhere, and that page is among the blanks?
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i'm not an expert on the bible, but i would imagine that the main points of its stories don't change substantially within its different versions, do they?

another thing to consider is the fact that bibles were only supposed to be owned by priests or other church authorities in those days. in addition, because bibles were originally hand written/copied and painted, they could normally only be affordable to a very small minority of wealthy people. i believe the value of a bible in the thirteenth century was equivilent to the cost of an average home in the country.

this could possibly imply that the originators of the tarot were quite well aquainted with the details of the bible - perhaps church officials. however, this would seem to contradict the generally accepted view that the church did not promote the game of tarot, and would most likely not have included an image of the pope in the cards.

so, depending on who we imagine created the first set of tarot cards, it may follow that the use of traditionally "religious" images in the tarot may actually have a less than "traditional" meaning or symbolism.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolish
this could possibly imply that the originators of the tarot were quite well aquainted with the details of the bible - perhaps church officials. however, this would seem to contradict the generally accepted view that the church did not promote the game of tarot, and would most likely not have included an image of the pope in the cards.

so, depending on who we imagine created the first set of tarot cards, it may follow that the use of traditionally "religious" images in the tarot may actually have a less than "traditional" meaning or symbolism.
There were different people in the church, some engaged in persecuting card playing, and others were playing card themselves.

In Rome it was for some time standard to bet on the next pope during papal elections. Pope Alexander VI was a card player. A son of a pope, Francesco Cibo, lost a horrible sum against a cardinal, who was able to finance a huge part of his Palazzo with it. In the time, when card production in Avignon had its height, the reigning cardinal had been Giulio Rovere, who became pope in 1503. When he left Avignon for Rome, a greater part of the card production in Avignon (that was papal territory) went bankrupt - surely not without reason.

I don't know, what you take as "the general accepted view", perhaps it's better to take a reasonable view based on facts, and the facts are simple contradicting as the actions of the participating persons simply NOT followed always the same ideas and moral.
So global judgments like "the church prohibited" or "was against cards" don't help, only precise "whos and whens" form something like a picture, which allows some judgment.
Naturally these many "who and when" demand some work to know them.

In matters of moralistic behavior Rome in much aspects had been a worse place than others during late 15th and early 16th century ... that's well known.
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even if we would agree that some of the church members loved the game of tarot, it seems doubtful that the creators of the tarot were themselves members of the church, or used the bible as its main source when they were developing it - which was my point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolish
even if we would agree that some of the church members loved the game of tarot, it seems doubtful that the creators of the tarot were themselves members of the church, or used the bible as its main source when they were developing it - which was my point.
One point is, that there were not only one sort of Tarot / Trionfi cards.

And the second point is, that there is indeed suspicion, that some clerics made versions of Tarot.

And the third is ... how do you define "member of the church"? Weren't non-clerics not also "member of the church"? I think, that a lot of catholic non-clerics participated in the production of Tarot cards.

Petrarca for instance worked in various clerical offices. Although there is no suspicion, that Petrarca made any Tarot or Trionfi cards, it's without doubt, that Petrarca's "Trionfi" poem influenced deeply the concept of the early Trionfi card production and also the later developing Tarot.
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by church memeber, i mean someone employed by the church, not its congregation. as you point out, that would include the vast majority of the population.

also, let's be clear about your evidence of the church's attitude toward the tarot. are you saying that since there are writings which implicate some of the church hierarchy like a pope to gambling or using the tarot, that this constitutes a general attitude of the church, or reflects its policy? this might be similar to saying that since some catholic priests have been found guilty of child molestation, that this reflects the church's attitude on the subject. it's pretty clear that what a few people do in their spare time does not make policy. in the same light, we know that the tone of sermons from the time are inconsistent with the fact that a pope was thought to enjoy the use of the tarot cards for personal matters.

although there were probably different views about the use of the tarot, i believe that the general opinion by the clergy was negative. but maybe that's just me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
And the second point is, that there is indeed suspicion, that some clerics made versions of Tarot.
Don Domenico Messore, an "ecclesiastic" (according to Ortalli - the "don" makes it so), made Tarots for the Este family, 1454.

Marziano Rampini (da Tortona), was also a secular priest.
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interesting. i'm wondering why they would then include images like the pope, unless they were purposely using his image as a parody of sorts, perhaps having something to do with the political affiliations of the families (like the d'estes) they were associated with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
Don Domenico Messore, an "ecclesiastic" (according to Ortalli - the "don" makes it so), made Tarots for the Este family, 1454.

Marziano Rampini (da Tortona), was also a secular priest.
Don Messore also accompanied Meliaduse d'Este to Jerusalem in 1440, and wrote a book about it (published for the first time last year)

Don Domenico Messore, Viagio del Sancto Sepolcro facto per lo Illustro Misere Milliaduxe Estense, Edizione e Commento a cura di Beatrice SALETTI, Istituto Storico Italiano per il Medio Evo-Fonti per la Storia dell’Italia Medievale, Palazzo Borromini, Piazza dell’Orologio, Roma 2009.

http://blog.libero.it/Lesto/commenti...0121&id=131548

Beatrice Saletti knows about Don Messore's Tarot productions, according to the review at the linked page.

"Chi era don Domenico Messore? Si chiede la curatrice.

La prima risposta consiste in notizie scarne, ma interessanti e di prima mano. Eccone un esempio. Nel 1454, don Domenico ha ricevuto da Leonello D’Este l’incarico di dirigere un laboratorio di pittura dei Tarocchi, le antiche carte da gioco miniate, e di fabbricarne egli stesso. La notizia è un’ulteriore conferma di quanto si sa, cioè che l’origine dei Tarocchi, ovvero le carte dei Trionfi, è legata agli ambienti cortigiani di Ferrara e di Milano. Ma ciò su cui si argomenta nell’esegesi è il prestigio dei Trionfi, la cui autorevolezza era tale da costituire un’eccezione rispetto ai pericoli spirituali che il gioco rappresentava, soprattutto per un ecclesiastico."
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