Franniee's Solar Return

I've posted a new thread to deal with an issue arising in the Sticky on Predictive Methods. that Franniee raised in relation to her own Solar Return chart and the approach to interpreting it.

I've posted a bi-wheel showing Franniee's SR positions plotted against her natal chart.

Now there are a number of ways of producing the Solar Return chart, depending on whether we decide (if necessary) to relocate the chart to the native's current location and whether we want to allow in some way or other for the precession of the equinoxes over time.

I've kept the Solar Return location to the Natal location and simply used the Tropical Zodiac, which is the easiest (but arguably not the best approach).

The object here is to make a prediction about the coming year (that is the year from the last birthday). The predicitions may not identify specific events but will give an overall judgement for the year. Again there are various ways of proceeding but I'll start with a fairly traditional reading and we can take it from there.

Lilly's first test is to see if the signs on the Ascendant of the SR and Natal charts are the same. If they are then it is the first testimony to a good year ahead. The are not in this case.

Lilly's second step would be to look at the SR Ascendant ruler and it's condition, especially is it combust (within 8.5 degrees of the Sun). This is Saturn (Not Uranus - this is a traditional approach). Saturn is in Libra where it has exaltation, so it is essentially strong (a good sign) and it is not combust. It is placed in the eighth House which is a weak position in the chart. So a strong Saturn is weakened by position. An angular Saturn would have been a good indicator. Perhaps overall Saturn is either a weak positive or neutral testimony for the coming year.

Thirdly Lilly would look at the position of the Sun in the SR chart. In this case the Sun lies in the seventh House. It's angularity is reduced because whilst it rules the Descendant it is placed in Virgo. Still this is a positive testimony to a good year. There is likely to be some focus on relationships during the year

Fourthly Lilly would look at the position of the Moon in the SR chart. The Moon is important for the strength of any chart. If the Moon is in one of it's key essential dignities then it's a testimony for a good year. Here the Moon is in Scorpio, a water sign but as the Sun has not set in the SR chart, it is Mars who rules the Water Triplicity and the Moon has no essential dignity, indeed it is peregrine. Things are not all bad, the Moon is in a separating conjunction with Venus and is conjunct the ninth cusp but overall a testimony pointing to a weak year.

Lilly's penultimate test would be to look at the relationship between the SR Ascendant and the Natal Ascendant - in this case they are square to one another. That's an indicator that the coming year will not be good.

Finally Lilly looks at the planets in some detail. Firstly are the planets distributed in a totally different way between the two charts - particularly is one the reverse of the other - well in the natal chart only two planets are above the horizon, in the SR chart only one is below. So again testimony that things will not run well.

Continuing with the planets, Lilly looks to see if there are any conjunctions between SR and natal planets. Now the SR Sun will conjoin the natal Sun by definition of a Solar Return, so we are really looking at the others. We have two - SR Saturn conjoins Natal Moon and SR Saturn also conjoins Natal Mercury. As Saturn is an infortune, these aspects do not bode well. Lilly would say that they probably signify problems with children, and written/spoken communications (Mercury) and possible health issues such as coughs, depression, and generally feeling down (Moon). Clearly those would not be seen as positive in anyway. That Saturn is in exaltation will mitigate against these being serious but niggly issues could well typify the year.

Looking down the list it seems that the negatives outweigh the positives so it's not going to be a wonderful year but there's nothing seriously awful. On balance not an easy year and having issues relating to relationships (not necessarily romantic ones) children and health.

Saturn is clearly the dominant planet in this reading so the year will be restrictive. Saturn rules your natal MC, so you might find that what benefits there are during the year are more likely to show up through the areas of life ruled by Saturn in your Natal chart - spirituality, career and friends and hopes and dreams, rather than through material things. Saturn is also well dignified in both SR and Natal charts.

Some riders

Lilly would not see this reading as stand alone - he would also be looking at your Primary Directions and Profections and he would modify the reading in their light (these were his main predictive methods). I've not done those (maybe later on) so I can't qualify the reading as he would.

Secondly this is not the only traditional way of reading a Solar Return. Morin might well come up with a different emphasis though he too would want to put the SR chart in the context of Directions in force at the time. Lilly would not relocate the chart but Morin would always cast the chart for the location of the native, so the birth place would only be used if the native was still there or even was just on a return visit.

The above is a starting point for discussions and questions.

I'm sure Dave will want to introduce the idea of precession corrected return charts, which I've deliberately left out of the reading. Franniee has also probably got quite a few questions to ask.

Minderwiz said:

The above is a starting point for discussions and questions.

I'm sure Dave will want to introduce the idea of precession corrected return charts, which I've deliberately left out of the reading. Franniee has also probably got quite a few questions to ask.

Click to expand...

Ah Yeah! I do have a few questions.

Thank you for doing this because it is much easier for me to digest when I have something "tangible" to look at. I think the hardest thing for me to figure out is how to weight the aspects. Some get more weight than others. Thanks for doing the ordering so I could see what I need to look at first etc.....

The chart I cast looks identical.... the thing is I didn't even consider the house changes. Thanks for that. I saw the MC was moved to Aquarius but the house change didn't occur to me .

It's interesting - could be the way I look at things - but I saw the Saturn on my moon and merc as a good thing.... as me seeing through things and not getting overly emotional or losing my logic but I can also see it your way.

Saturn is always my dominant planet so I am a bit used to it.

Question about natal chart

I have a question about the natal chart. The data in the charts posted for Franniee gives this data:
Sept. 11, 1961 @ 21:14 EDT
Glen Cove, NY 073w3803 40n5144

This data yields an MC of 23 Capricorn, an Ascendant of 11 Taurus. This is different from the charts posted. I do not want to proceed until this difference is cleared up. Am I overlooking something? Dave

The Charts

Dave, You are quite correct in terms of the Ascendant and MC for the natal chart. However the charts posted are:

The Solar Return Chart for 2010 (with no precession correction and for the natal place)

A Bi-wheel of SR chart against the natal chart (outer ring is SR placings). The Bi wheel shows the correct Ascendant and MC.

I did the reading in a rush last night, to try and get the ball rolling. Lilly's method was the easiest to do in the time and fulfilled the object of providing an opening, rather than attempting to be in any way a definitive,

Franniee,

You raise a good point about the role of Saturn both at a natal level and at the SR level. I used Lilly's stock interpretation of the Saturn aspects but he would have only advanced those in the light of his readings of the SR chart together with the annual profections and any important Directions for the year. So it is perfectly possible that Saturn might play a more benevolent role (though being Saturn the taskmaster remains).

I'll have a look at the Primary Directions and Profections during the day and will try to weave those in later, either as part of this thread or when the parent thread on predictions reaches an appropriate point to discuss them.

Minderwiz said:

I've posted a bi-wheel showing Franniee's SR positions plotted against her natal chart.

Click to expand...

FYI I don't live that far away from where I was born which is correct at
Glen Cove, NY 073°W 38'03" 40°N 51'44"
I live in Syosset, NY 073°W 30'09" 40°N 49'34"

Thanks for the update. It doesn't make a lot of difference - about 13 minutes further into Aquarius for the Ascendant and + 8 minutes to the MC. However these days relocations can have quite an effect on SR (and other) charts, so at least we know that we don't really need to worry too much about relocation, in your case .

Some comments on Franniee's 2010 Solar Return

Note that my comments relate to your PRECESSION CORRECTED 2010 Solar Return. Because the Tropical Zodiac regresses along Earth's orbital path while a Sidereal Zodiac (or precession corrected Tropical Zodiac) Solar Return does not shift its relative position, the Tropical Solar Return occurs several hours prior to the other forms of return charts. In this period, the Earth rotates and the chart angles of the Solar Return are correspondingly different.

The p.c. 2010 Solar Return chart has an MC at 13 Leo, an Asc. at 6 Scorpio, the Moon at 16 Scorpio.

Relative to the p.c. Solar Return chart, I approach the chart somewhat like a Sidereal astrologer would, focusing on the chart angles and any natal/transiting planets found near those angles. Unlike Sidereal astrologers, and similarities to their practices starts and ends at that point. My approach is also unlike that of Tropical astrologers who tend to follow some variation of proscribed steps for interpreting a chart that may follow the practices of the 16th century French astrologer J. B. Morin or the more recent (1900's) French astrologer A. Volguine.

The reason why my approach is different is that I view the Solar Return as a cyclic chart and not a static chart that represents a spatial "return" to an orbital point --- although that does define when the chart has to be cast.

The "cyclic" approach is based on the practice of tracking the relationship between the advancing "progressed" MC and advancing daily Sun using a method called the "MC-Solar Cycle." This cycle is defined and marked by the MC position of subsequent Solar Returns in which the MC appears to advance some 90 degrees in zodiac measurement each year. This cycle starts at one's birth and continues throughout ones life. Because it is a continuous and regular cycle (as defined), it is marked by the return chart but actually continues each day starting at birth. Because of this any in-between day bounded by any two solar returns has its own definable MC and Ascendant angles. Because of this, the natal chart, the solar return chart and any of the daily charts are linked and related to each other.

This cyclic relatedness supports the natal chart being viewed as one's potential and basis of character, the solar return as being the yearly theme that can contribute to how a portion of one's potential might be actualized in the coming year, and the daily charts will reflect ones attitude, actions and experiences or situations that will occur on any given day. In all of these charts the every advancing angles provide the focus of interpretation and only those planets that are at the angles are considered.

Because only a few planets are typically angular in this p.c. Solar Return, the interpretation of the Solar Return is often quite clear and simple. THIS IS WHERE SEVERE DIFFERENCES OCCUR BETWEEN ME AND THE TROPICAL ASTROLOGERS. They have to find various ways to predict what and when might happen in the coming year --- this often involves using Secondary Progression charts, Lunar Returns, Transit charts, Eclipse charts, and anything else they believe might work. I view this approach as confusing, and leading to finding a chart, any chart, that might say what on wants to say or see.

My MC-Solar Cycle follows one cycle that expresses itself as a natal imprinting chart and solar return charts (where the Sun and MC define the continuing cycle) and daily charts which show the ever-advancing cycle as it exists on a given day. It's all one cycle in which I can take a whole-life view (the natal chart) or a focused period view (the solar return), or a specific-day view where I can see the nature of what one feels and thinks and acts upon.

**** Let us look at Franniees 2010 p.c. Solar Return.

** Natal Venus (16 Leo) is close to the S/R MC (13 Leo): Venus symbolism (love, beautification, relatedness, acquisition, adornment) will play a role in this year's plans and goals.
** Transiting Venus (2 Scorpio) is close to the S/R Asc. (6 Scorpio): Venus actions are to be expected (loving, dressing and presenting oneself well, being open and inviting and supportive of others, collecting clothes-jewelry- home accessories or painting/improving one's home is to be expected.
** With a "double Venus" situation (both natal and transiting) being angular, one can expect these Venus themes to dominate Franniee's year.

** Natal Neptune (9 Scorpio) is close to the Ascendant (6 Scorpio): One experiences dreams and expectations of a dramatic or fantasy nature.
** Transiting Neptune (26 Aquarius) is in the fourth house as defined by the IC angle at 13 Aquarius. While not a close aspect, it points to possibilities being seen at/near ones home or base of operations.
** Again, this is a "doubling up" of a planet, Neptune. Fantasy, dreams, fairy tale situations, drama (as well as deceit and things that don't work out) is a secondary focus for this year.

We need to consider natal Venus' house, the 4th.and its wide square to Neptune at/near the natal Descendant. This astrological pattern supports the above observations: 4th house Venus denotes one who likes their home and family traditions, tends to collect accessories and/or beautify their home, and are very emotional and appreciative of a nice environment and pleasant people. Neptune/Descendant suggests one who retains their ideals when in a relationship with another even though one's dreams and activities may involve wishing-deceit-promises-hopes that may or may not pan out.

This is all that needs to be said for Franniee's solar return. Now, you may ask about the when-what-why-how nature of the means by which these factors may be experienced. That falls into the cyclic area where we have to look at when the advancing angles and planet movements will be such that these two planets and the natal chart angles will be contacted at one time or another during the year. That is for another posting when I have the time.

At this point it would be appropriate to better understand Franniee's circumstances in terms of her lifestyle, work, family life, goals and plans. This would enable the search for appropriate dates in the coming year to be found that relate to the context of her life, the potential in her natal chart, so that dates and likely experiences could be identified ahead of time. This would enable her to determine how she chooses to use her symbols in the best way for her needs and not to fit some general book deliniation.

Franniee, you may choose to answer these questions here on the forum or privately via the message system or my e-mail, or to just ignore the question. In the latter case I will select a few dates for the coming months and just make some brief comments. Dave

General practice for interpreting a Solar Return.

It has been my observation that most astrologers follow a general series of steps in their approach to interpreting a Solar Return chart. While I do not follow this approach, it is a reasonable approach in terms of interpreting a given chart which is treated either as a stand-alone chart or as being related to the natal chart.

1) The Sun-Sun (they are conjunct by definition in a Solar Return chart) house position is assessed relative to the focus of one's actions and experiences for the year.

2) Aspects of the Sun position to other natal planets and transiting planets are assessed. Whatever the positions of natal or transiting planets aspecting the Sun, the natal chart's interpretation for those planets is taken into consideration.

3) The position of both the natal Moon and transiting Moon is noted. Natal Moon in its S/R position is assessed relative to how it is normally experienced within the natal chart's meanings. Transiting (or Solar Return) Moon is seen as how one is likely to respond to public activities and emotional-generating factors experienced in the coming year. The Moon can related to the public, one's feelings and needs, one's response mechanisms, how one is supportive or can be supported by others.

4) The combination of Sun and Moon factors is assessed in terms of how they might work together compared to how they normally work together over the course of your life.

5) Planets at/near angles are given strong consideration. How do they relate to each other? How do their natal counterparts relate, and how do they link into the transiting versions of themselves.

6) When looking at transiting/Solar Return planet placements, consider the houses they are in as well as the natal houses they were in. How will the natal house expression have to work in order to express itself through the Solar Return house placement.

7) Consider how any two natal planets relate to each other in their aspect connections or phase-angle connections. Does that fit with the transiting or solar return chart positions?

Now, some astrologers/author note 15 or 20 or more steps that one should follow. I'm not convinced that any rigidity of approach is needed other than that a procedure helps one to not overlook any important chart factor. My approach is quite free-form. For example, I did not note in Franniee's Solar Return chart that her Sun-Sun was in the 11th house of friendships. Further, her natal Moon in the solar return 12th house and transiting Moon in the first house together suggests a more open relatedness to others this year. Her natal Moon was in the natal sixth. We might assume that she will become more deeply involved or attracted to someone at her work place, or that she will improve or beautify a workplace or hobby room in her house, or take on a new interest or hobby based on some form of collectable object or decide to expand her outreach activities based on something she has long valued or developed in her personal life--all to help others, perhaps in a community way. Love and dreams can take so many forms. All of this is why I asked her to share the context of her life so that a more personalized approach could be taken with her chart. Astrology is both fascinating and complex, isn't it. Dave

dadsnook2000 said:

Now, some astrologers/author note 15 or 20 or more steps that one should follow. I'm not convinced that any rigidity of approach is needed other than that a procedure helps one to not overlook any important chart factor. My approach is quite free-form. For example, I did note in Franniee's Solar Return chart that her Sun-Sun was in the 11th house of friendships. Further, her natal Moon in the solar return 12th house and transiting Moon in the first house together suggests a more open relatedness to others this year. Her natal Moon was in the natal sixth. We might assume that she will become more deeply involved or attracted to someone at her work place, or that she will improve or beautify a workplace or hobby room in her house, or take on a new interest or hobby based on some form of collectable object or decide to expand her outreach activities based on something she has long valued or developed in her personal life--all to help others, perhaps in a community way. Love and dreams can take so many forms. All of this is why I asked her to share the context of her life so that a more personalized approach could be taken with her chart. Astrology is both fascinating and complex, isn't it. Dave

Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

Thank you for this! I am sorry to say I don't understand how you did the PRECESSION CORRECTED solar return chart. I looked at my program and I can't figure out how I would do that so I can follow along. I'll start googling to figure it out once I get my child on the bus. It may have been discussed here before and I missed it....so before I ask for help let me see what I can figure out.

Astrology is fascinating and you are right, so complex!!! I think that is what drew me to it initially so many years ago.

To answer your questions .... for work I do a bunch of things: I do the book keeping for my husband's business (a job I do out of necessity), I am writing a book (almost done), I want to begin a novel but need to finish the first book, I do readings (mostly by phone so I am home), I am a life coach/guide (also through phone consultations) - when I have a client I tutor Math and Science. I am active in a car racing club I belong to and am now the editor of their magazine. This will be a big job! I will take the reins in January.

Friendships are a challenge. I have some very old friends that are scattered around the world and they will be with me forever but they aren't geographically close. Making new friends is tricky because like you mentioned I have my values and ways. I long for companionship and I am friendly so I meet and make friends easily. There is always drama and fantasy. I never realized that neptune was influencing this area of my life.... this makes sense.... I get very disillusioned! I would like to free myself from this influence. I am way too tired of it all anymore!

I do like a beautiful home and beautiful things. This home is a disappointment to me but I constantly seek to beautify it to make it more comfortable for us. It is lovely enough it just isn't me. I am not looking for a mansion or anything large I just want something with character and some more room. I do regret purchasing it. I probably regretted it the moment I went into contract but I didn't want to lose our deposit. It took me a long time to acclimate. We've made big changes to it and it is comfortable enough...

I am not a collector. Whatever I buy I need to use otherwise I let it go. I like clean lines, I like old things and tradition.

dadsnook said:

Franniee's circumstances in terms of her lifestyle, work, family life, goals and plans.

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I am married and we have a 7yo daughter. They are the loves of my life! or are my life. Her activities occupy my afternoons. I go to my husband's business once a week or so..... sometimes I let things pile up and then go for a week and clear it all out.

My personal goal is to finish the book and embark on the novel. I believe the book will be done within the month and then I have to shop it around. My other goal is to increase my reading and coaching business. It is a drop in the bucket at this point - so expansion would be wonderful. I like being busy and have rarely been too busy.....

Our plans long range, are to move into our dream home. For this to happen we need to have a couple of fruitful years and we need the economy to turn around. We've lost 10% of the value of our home during this down turn...... IF we could sell it!!! and that IF is BIG!!!! I am ever optimistic and I see this coming! I know it will. I also see our financial circumstances looking up! I hope I am not being a pollyanna.

I hope this is what you were looking for.....