Rune Advice

[Flintar]

thank you
(actually we re having rook trouble peskey birds)

[brightcrazystar]

I saw my first raven when I went to look for an ash tree to prune. I find that they follow me every time now. If you are looking at making or learning Runes, and you get Ravens, they are not pesky, they are responding.

I truly believe that.

The Raven's Banner, Hrafnsmerk, of the Norse is one of their more sacred symbols. It is sacred to Odin, Rafnagud or "Raven God."

[Milfoil]

Rooks and ravens are not the same bird. Most people get them and the larger carion crows mixed up easily which is not surprising. However a Raven really can't be mistaken since they are a) HUGE (bigger than a Common Buzzard) with a wingspan of about 1.5m, b) have a diamond shaped tail and c) have a very peculiar cry, completely different to rooks and crows.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...ies/crows.aspx

The world tree could be an Ash or a Yew depending on how we read the etymology of the Norse names and correspondences from the prose and poetic Edda but if you are going to use wood it may well prove to be a suitable correspondence to use Ash or Yew. Some rune workers maintain that runes should never be cut into anything living (possibly because the Hamval suggests that curses and harm are done that way) so a tree branch may have to wait several months until it was considered (or felt) dead before being used, if you wanted to follow this way of working.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

There is no evidence that runes were ever used as a divinatory system in the way that we do today so what we do really is up to the individual but they were cut into rock tablets or standing stones, inscribed into metal objects such as swords, belt buckles, saddle pommels, amulets, shields and helmets, altars and other non perishable items both as a means of magical protection, cursing and the recording of names and/or events.

What you make your rune set out of is really up to you and how you feel drawn towards working with that material, what that material means to you etc. The Hamval talks about writing or painting the runes so whatever you decide, have fun and enjoy the whole experience.

[brightcrazystar]

I use Runes actively and passively. Anything can be used to gain insight. I use the Rune Poems for guidance.

As for raven and rook, the Norsemen were not so informed of kingdom, species, and genus. Rafn is the Norse word cognate for the Old English "hroc", which is where rook comes from.

As for the yew and the ash, there is a great sacred nature to every tree in Midgard to the Sithr. The Ash tree I use because it is more universal to other things I do, and the ash tree is the sweet wood of many traditions, including my own Religion. I use it for what the greeks called the Meli, used to make the sacred Soma. This is the oracular drink of choice for lots of cutures, and makes a great deal of sense in the Havamal. The World Tree was said to drip mead from it's boughs, and honey from it's branches and it was extremely sacred to most Indo-European cultures for this. Yew branches do not do this, Ash trees do. The Yew tree is fine if you go that way, but The Ash tree has physical properties of the World Tree, and both Huginn and Muninn agree it is the tree for me. I don't tell people to take drugs, but I do personally use soma and other herbal mixtures religiously.

As for never cutting something living, That directly contradicts their culture. They pruned the living all the time. Prjon is the Norse root of the word "prune" as a matter of fact. It means to cut free. They had specific methods of deforestation, and made boats to go a'viking out of wood which has to still be alive to bend properly around the keel.
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3711/

Most Norse tribes were agricultural, and would be quite used to cutting living things and primarily vegetation. In fact there afterlife was a idealist world of constant fighting until all are dismembered.

The Norse were tribal, and several tribes emerge with distinctions, so there is no right and wrong. I acknowledge the essential premise of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. There is NO reason that every possible speculation has not been true at least once in the infinite spectrum of the human condition. This is a major premise of the Great Work.

[Milfoil]

Originally Posted by brightcrazystar

As for never cutting something living, That directly contradicts their culture. They pruned the living all the time. Prjon is the Norse root of the word "prune" as a matter of fact. It means to cut free. They had specific methods of deforestation, and made boats to go a'viking out of wood which has to still be alive to bend properly around the keel.
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/3711/

Most Norse tribes were agricultural, and would be quite used to cutting living things and primarily vegetation. In fact there afterlife was a idealist world of constant fighting until all are dismembered.

Perhaps I didn't express myself very well. The reference is not to cutting or pruning the living tree etc but to inscribing the runes into it. Of course the Norse, as every other society of it's kind, cut wood to make their homes, to burn for warmth, to make bows and arrows etc but the cutting of runes 'into' the living wood was considered to be part of cursing or hexing (and still is in the old ways in many parts of the world).

I can't comment on the

Originally Posted by brightcrazystar

Rafn is the Norse word cognate for the Old English "hroc"

since I don't have that knowledge but it is possible, that the Norse understood the large Raven to be different to the Old English rook hence there are two differen words for them which are very similar to our modern English Rafn = Raven and Hroc = Rook. The two birds are very discimilar in cry and size so it is unlikely that our Norse ancestors mistook one for the other. Most people who live close to the land are much more aware of such differences than we tend to be nowadays. To say that the Norse were not so informed does them a disservice, they are sure to have recognised the difference between a raven and all other corvids, to imply that they simply called them all by the same name is to assume that they made no distinction between a bird with a magical association to Odin and any other corvid. For a society living so close to nature I find that hard to believe.

[brightcrazystar]

I am sorry for misunderstanding your reference to cutting. What you cut a rune on does matter, traditionally.

As for rafn and hroc, this is where you misunderstand me, These two words are from different languages which share a common root, the word rafn is old norse. The word hroc is old english. Both come from a common root.

[Milfoil]

I did understand you but don't know what the common root is, hence they both sound, look and seem very different but clearly correspond to two different birds which seems to suggest that they are indeed different. When you say that Rafn and hroc have a common root, it would need to be clearer what that root is in order to make the connection between the two and state, with any assurance that both are indeed referring to the same thing in different languages.

Just looking at an online Etymology dictionary:

raven Look up raven at Dictionary.com
O.E. hræfn (Mercian), hrefn; hræfn (Northumbrian, W.Saxon), from P.Gmc. *khrabanas (cf. O.N. hrafn, Dan. ravn, Du. raaf, O.H.G. hraban, Ger. Rabe "raven," O.E. hroc "rook"), from PIE base *qer-, *qor-, imitative of harsh sounds (cf. L. crepare "to creak, clatter," cornix "crow," corvus "raven;" Gk. korax "raven," korone "crow;" O.C.S. kruku "raven;" Lith. krauklys "crow").

The common raven is easily tamed, but is mischievous and thievish, and has been popularly regarded as a bird of evil omen and mysterious character. [OED]

O.E. also used hræmn, hremm. The raven standard was the flag of the Danish Vikings.

This seems to suggest that there was both hraefn and hroc in Old English but the two terms seem to be interchangeable in later etymology study. This suggests that in England at least, both were seen as different but perhaps our more recent scholars who enjoy the history of language are perhaps not so clued up on birds.

I could be wrong, they could indeed, as you suggest, be one in the same.

[Flintar]

lol i have alot of things that follow me horses, rabbits, dears, birds, snakes the list goes on really

[brightcrazystar]

I could be, but don't think I am wrong. I think hrafn (which is the root of raven) is really more close to their word for the Greek "corvus". It is not a species title. It is my belief they would not have considered the Jay a corvid, cause the Greeks didn't either, though the word applies to their common genetic family now. I suspect anything in the "true crow" family of corvids would be to them a Hrafn; a blackish ,noisy ,intelligent ,carrion or vine bird. This is akin the Cherokee "Tsa-la-gi", which is a word that applies to crow, raven, rook, and jackdaw. Go-la-gv on the other hand means "crow." Ta-su-wa means "raven." But both are "Tsa-la-gi."

Very few languages had such distinctions before the Age of Reason, or at least had very few people who made such distinctions. The same is true of the welsh word "Bran." The Gaelic on the other hand makes distinctions between crow and raven.

This is not saying they were collectively less astute or less intelligent, it is just that they basically (I suspect) were the birds of the carrion kind, that are true crows which came and picked at corpses. There is evidence for this as all "sea birds" are called moave (plural mavar). Albatross, Gull, Pidgeon, no matter what. Similarly, all dogs were called "hund" so do we debate what species chased the sun? Nah, we just figure it was "canine."

This is my intuition which some studies lend me the notion that my speculations and observation are valid enough for my use and application. Most people would not bother to make a distinction I suspect unless it was an area of specialty. I do not automatically condemn people for saying the word shark applies to several species, many of which most people can't tell apart. The ones who did make distinction probably did with additional words, such as "blue-jay" or "hooded-crow" or completely different "Kraka mavar" is for example is a black seagull. A sign of import to them.

Look at the nature of word assimilation in english. Cow is English, Beef is Nordic. Deer is English, Venison is Nordic. Sheep is English, Mutton is Nordic. The Norse words for these animals became the word for the meat the animal yields. Many modify or co-exist and people use interchangably, such as vengeance and anger. or Father and Patron. This is all part of the reason Linguistics fascinates me so.

How in the heck did Hru-fer and Hrafn become two different birds? One is a blood hawk to the Egyptian and One is the Raven to the Norse. "haukr" is norse for the Hawk btw, and where we get the name, but it shares the common root with "hroc" which is Old English for Raven.

This is on topic because Vedrfolnir is the name of the haukr sitting on top of the World Tree. - This haukr sits between the eyes of the unnamed Auth'orr (an unnamed Eagle) and flies around reporting to the Eagle, whose name is not revealed. So the Haukr is to the Auth'orr and the Hrafn is to Odin?

This is never going to be more than speculation, so it is no use in trying to be definitive. Therefore, this is no reason to not speak with authority as long as you are being sincere, have satisfied your need for research, and IT WORKS.

[gregory]

I think Norsemen were entirely capable of distinguishing a rook from a raven. They really are very different birds - this isn't just an esoteric specialised difference. To say that they used the same word for both because they couldn't tell them apart is plain wrong, IMHO - that's like saying (as an extreme example) that you can tell that they couldn't tell a robin from a pheasant because they called both "bird".

There are all sorts of cases where a word in one country means something quite different in another - but where the same word is used with totally different meanings and with the identical etymology.

I think Milfoil is far closer to right here.