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Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks


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Wink Giving in to Vague Generalizations


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
It's something else that traditional pips offer us - a fluid structure. I mean a general set of energies defined by suit and number that we can work with, and apply to our querent's situation, without having to limit ourselves to a single 'set' meaning.

To illustrate this principle in action, I'll offer up M's Rule of Thumb #1-

Work your way from the outside in.

By this I mean start with the general and move toward the specific, but only penetrate as far as needed. If the generalized is clear, don't confuse yourself with the sometimes contradictory specifics. Keep it simple if you can, but have the knowledge to probe further if need be...

The first generalization I'd make would be on the nature of the suits.


Quote:
*Some Sweeping Generalizations About the Suits*

Swords - The instrument of war. Emblematic of man's aggressions and power of rule, discord, strife, hence generally speaking 'BAD'.

Batons - The instrument of agriculture and husbandry. Emblematic of labour and productivity. Not necessarily malefic, but laborious, arduous, fatiguing, hence not much fun, thus in general, 'MILDLY BAD'.

Coins - The medium of trade, security, material comforts, so 'MILDLY GOOD'.

Cups - The instrument of giving and receiving drink. Emblematic of sociability, pleasure, and the forming of bonds and alliances (holy union, marriage, etc.) 'GOOD'.

EXAMPLE - A man asks about buying a vintage '65 Ford Mustang.

The card representing 'our man' is a COIN. The card representing 'the car' is a BATON. He is mildly enthusiastic, and the car mildly bad, most likely being a laborious effort. He wants the car, but is not that into it. He also may be 'fond of comfort,' meaning lazy (the number of the card would verify that). So, the car is probably a bad idea, because it will be a laborious undertaking that may not suit his casual interest and attitude.

Now, if we want to go a bit deeper, we can look at 'number'. Yet even here, start from the outside and work in.


Quote:
*Some Sweeping Generalizations About Numbers*


ODD...........................EVEN

indivisible........................divisible

singular.............................plural

right..................................left

male...............................female

active.............................passive

direct.............................indirect

fluctuating..........................stable

Now all you bookworms out there will recognize this is Aristotle's Table of Opposition from The Metaphysics. Some may notice I've switch 'fluctuating' and 'stable'. I'll just point that out, and say, both ways have their pros and cons.

Now, I must say, that is a lot of goodies for the 'toolbox'. These can be used at opportune times, if the context is right.


EXAMPLES:

#1 "Will Sandy leave her rich boyfriend and come back to my loving, but unemployed, arms?" Sandy's significator is the 5 of COINS. The suit is comfy, the 5 is odd, thus indivisible (hard to divide)... Don't hold your breath.

#2 "Am I the only girl Mr. Wonderful is seeing right now?" Mr. W's significator is the 9 of CUPS, which is odd, thus singular. Yes, you're the only girl he's seeing, and he really enjoys your company (cups).

#3 "I have a big job interview next Friday. What's the best strategy for getting the job?" The querent's significator is the 6 of COINS, the interviewer's significator is the 9 of COINS. The interviewer's card is odd, hence direct and active, the querent's card is even, so he should probably stay passive and be submissive... Time to kiss some a$%#.

#4 "Surprise, surprise... My mother-in-law has stopped by for an unexpected visit! How long will I have to put up with her!?" Her significator is the 5 of Batons. It's odd, so it's fluctuating. She won't be around too much longer.

HOW NOT TO USE THIS!! - A NEGATIVE EXAMPLE

"Is Mary the gal for me?" Mary's significator - 3 of CUPS, hence male. "Sorry, but the love of your life is really a man!" We can't do this!! No. no, no... CONTEXT is essential.

So, without really considering any 'specific' meanings for our suits, or any specific 'numerological' meanings for our pips, we've still been able to answer a few questions with just generalizations. Of course, sometimes we'll have to go a bit deeper and pull out more specialized tools from the ol' toolbox (dignities, Picatrix, Iamblichus, the Kinks ).

By definition, generalizations are what would generally hold true, they are given greater weight and should be considered before specifics, which deal, obviously with a specific aspect of a situation.

It's kind of like those online maps, where you can zoom in and out. If you begin zoomed way down, and you don't know the general area, forget it. You have to zoom out get the overview and work your way down to the specifics of the thing.

So, there it is, for whatever its worth. M's Rule of Thumb #1 (Of many...)



Cheers,

Mel
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That is great M! Nice and clear too. Thanks a bunch.

Hooked
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Melanchollic:

Thanks for taking the time to do this. It is very excellent and well presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelkins
Again, I'd like to see a practical use of Iamblichus in a reading.
Please allow me to probe a little bit in line with Frelkins' question:

In your examples you have 5, 6 and 9. (Corrupt and badly translated Iamblichus cheatsheet has "Life Mediacy", "Perfection", and "Limit End", respectively.)

So, regarding the Job Interview question which draws 6 Coins (applicant) and 9 Coins (interviewer):

This sounds like a really great draw for the situation, since coins are ultimately what we are after. Would it be out of line to tell the applicant that their interview might go "perfectly" (6)? (Would build confidence, I'm sure...) Is it possible that the person conducting the interviews is at their "limit end"(9)? (In other words, they have done so many interviews that they just want to hire somebody and get it over with?)

Another tradition of numerology (and the number-to-Major correspondence with 6="Lovers") would attribute "choice" to the 6 of Coins. Would it be wrong to advise the applicant that they need to decide what level of compensation that they are willing to accept, since it is likely that the choice will be offered to them?

Thanks again for your thought-provoking post.
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.

Thanks Hooked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kircher Tree
So, regarding the Job Interview question which draws 6 Coins (applicant) and 9 Coins (interviewer):

This sounds like a really great draw for the situation, since coins are ultimately what we are after. Would it be out of line to tell the applicant that their interview might go "perfectly" (6)? (Would build confidence, I'm sure...) Is it possible that the person conducting the interviews is at their "limit end"(9)? (In other words, they have done so many interviews that they just want to hire somebody and get it over with?)
I agree. It's very positive and I'd answer "Yes", if the question was a general sort of "will I get the job?" question. Both querent and quesited being COIN, shows they are on the same 'wave-length', another positive indicator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kircher Tree
Another tradition of numerology (and the number-to-Major correspondence with 6="Lovers") would attribute "choice" to the 6 of Coins. Would it be wrong to advise the applicant that they need to decide what level of compensation that they are willing to accept, since it is likely that the choice will be offered to them?
Great question. I don't think it would be wrong. I wouldn't read the card that way, but there is a precedent for that type of interpretation, if one wanted to go with it.

I personally have never really seen the use of the idea of 'choice' in a divinatory setting. For example, (Please, read aloud with a gypsy accent)


"If you should meet a tall, dark stranger in the disco this Friday night, you will have to choose whether are not you want to be his lover!!"


Well, that goes without saying. Anytime we're trying to be 'picked-up', we have to make that choice. It is stating the obvious. The conclusion is inevitable. This is true for most situations.


Quote:

Querent: "Where should we have dinner tonight?"

Reader: (Draws the Ace of Choices) "Ahhhh. You will have a choice where
you should eat dinner tonight."
Querent: "NOOOOOOOOOO!!! NOT THAT!!"

In your example, if indeed the querent is offered the choice of a level of compensation, of course he'd need to decide. There is no need to say,


"If you are offered the choice of a level of compensation, you'll need to decide."


Of course, I could be missing the boat on this one, and just not 'getting it'.

tink
Cheers Kircher,

Mel
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Quote:
" they need to decide what level of compensation that they are willing to accept, since it is likely that the choice will be offered to them"
I was unclear here. The main choice, of course, would be "You can choose to be paid "x" rupees per month, or you can choose to continue your job search."

But you might also need to choose whether or not you are willing to work nights, or if you are willing to relocate to a different city or country, if you are willing to work for a company that does not provide day care in exchange for more money, etc.

It depends on the local custom, the employer,and the situation as to what choices might be offered as a result of an interview. Sometimes you need to make these choices rather quickly, because if you are "wishy washy" or delay a decision, the employer can offer the job to someone else. That would be the reason to advise the applicant to be thinking about choices to be prepared.

Cheers!
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Reading the cards:


Hello Mel,

Looks like you've got a pretty comprehensive system there. Veeeery interesting. As Kircher Tree says = well presented. Thank you for posting it.

It would seem that the trick is to discover an appoach you're happy with, then expand it & build on it. You've done it!

3 Stars for Mel!

Bee
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Cheers Bee.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a "system". Just a few tips on using one of me many "Rules of Thumb".


M
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OMG - You've gone into harmonics! The universe (and string theory?) all encoded in 78 cards.... astounding.

The crvx cvbis lxxviii, you built it?

It's clear to me now that you're a 'maths-man', and oddly enough maths & music go together. But not often do you find poetry in that mix

Got it - You're a Tarot-scientist!

Wonderful ideas....

Bee
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?????
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ok mel, so where do we hear the 'zik? what's the URL for your streaming server?
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But I like Brian Eno & Bach, as well as the Psychedelic Furs, so this is sounding better and better to me. Now seriously, when will you be giving sample readings here in this style you keep taunting us with?
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Question


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
HOW NOT TO USE THIS!! - A NEGATIVE EXAMPLE

"Is Mary the gal for me?" Mary's significator - 3 of CUPS, hence male. "Sorry, but the love of your life is really a man!" We can't do this!! No. no, no... CONTEXT is essential.
I found this insightful and very stimulating, so straightforward!
Two quick questions, which others may have already asked:

1) In these examples how are the cards drawn/laid out? How is one a significator of the boy and the other the significator of the car? Do you just draw two cards this is for her, this is for the car?

2) What might be a more acceptable completion to the specific example I quote above?

Thanks for all your generous contributions!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanchollic
Do you want the 'deluxe' illustrated version, or something? You'll have to reciprocate 'big time' for that sort time and energy.
M
Yeah, baby! Deee-luxe. Oh course I will reciprocate. How about I read for you, you read for me, deluxe & illustrated this Sunday in the proper forum, as a sample? Then we can discuss and let everyone else hop in. Hmm?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
Yeah, baby! Deee-luxe. Oh course I will reciprocate. How about I read for you, you read for me, deluxe & illustrated this Sunday in the proper forum, as a sample? Then we can discuss and let everyone else hop in. Hmm?
Deal. (I was hoping for some interesting photos of you dressed up like the Little Mermaid though....)

I've got a major day of 'beauty' planned today, hair, facial, nails, the works.. (Pretty fly for a 'straight' guy, huh? ) So, I'll try to post something tomorrow...

Thanks Conversus! I'll post a reply to those questions shortly.


M
Top   #266
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Dee-luxe Illustrated Example Readings - Part 1


In order to introduce the forthcoming example readings, and answer Conversus' questions, I'll start with a little explanatory post about my 'bread & butter' method, the astrological method. Having studied traditional astrology, as well as geomancy, which also employs the '12 houses', this method is second nature to me, but it might be new to some, so I'll explain a little about it.

Generally, the whole pack is used for this. I know Kris Hadar's version only uses the 22 trumps, but since this is a thread about reading minors, we won't worry about that!

After the diviner has understood what the querent 'really' wants to know, (sometimes this takes a little probing) the cards are shuffled and 12 are selected in what ever manner that you prefer.

Conversus asked how the cards are 'drawn', so I will include a 'fancy-pants' way to get your twelve cards for an astrological spread.

Quote:
Melanchollic's Alchemical Shuffle

This shuffle takes advantage of the inherent 78 card structure of the deck, and incorporates the concept of planetary sympathy. Alchemists timed every detail of their work to the correct planetary day and hour, believing it 'energized' the work with the proper forces. We can use a similar approach, choosing cards that have been symbolically 'empowered' by a particular planet's archetypal energy, either for the planetary ruler of that given day, or based on the nature of the question, say Venus for questions about relationships, and so on.

Here's how it is done:

After the deck has been shuffled by the querent, it is handed to the diviner. The diviner, in order from top to bottom (deck face-down), places the cards face-down in seven stacks, one for each planet. The top card goes in stack #1, the second card in stack #2, the third card in stack #3 and so on until seven cards are face-down on the table. Continue by placing the eighth card in stack #1, the ninth card in stack #2, etc. You will end up with eleven cards in each stack with one left over. The last remaining card must be placed in the stack of the planet that rules whatever day of the week the reading is being done on.

The planetary rulers for each day are:

Sunday = Sun
Monday = Moon
Tuesday = Mars
Wednesday = Mercury
Thursday = Jupiter
Friday = Venus
Saturday = Saturn

From left to right the classic order of the planets is:

Stack #1 - Saturn
Stack #2 - Jupiter
Stack #3 - Mars
Stack #4 - Sun
Stack #5 - Venus
Stack #6 - Mercury
Stack #7 - Moon

Disregard all the cards except those in the stack of the planet that rules that day, or rules the 'topic' of the question. With those twelve cards form the 12 house arrangement shown below. Remember, the first card placed in the stack will be placed in the 1st house, which would be the bottom card in the stack, if the stack is facing downward.

All 'alchemical' gobble-gook aside, this method of drawing the cards really gets the deck nice and mixed, and it has a certain 'theatrical value' as well. Done in a slow and elegant manner, it builds anticipation and suspense.


Okay, now here is how the 12 astrological houses are traditionally arranged -




Here are some general traditional associations of the twelve houses -


First House: the querent.

Second House: goods, material wealth, gain, business transactions, material things the querent desires, and stolen property.

Third House: brothers and sisters, the querent's neighbors and environment, short journeys, letters, advice, news and rumours.

Fourth House: fathers, inheritances from parents, land, agriculture, buildings, construction, treasures, anything underground, ancient places and things, old age, hidden things.

Fifth House: pregnancy, children, sex, entertainments and feasts, bodies of water.

Sixth House: servants, employees, small animals, illness, and injuries.

Seventh House: the querent's spouse or lover, love relationships, marriage, partnerships, quarrels, any unidentified person.

Eighth House: suffering, death, dangers, inheritances (other than from parents).

Ninth House: religion, philosophy, learning and education, the arts, wisdom, long journeys.

Tenth House: employment, position in society, people in positions of authority, courts and judges, mothers, and the weather.

Eleventh House: friends, sources of help, good fortune, the querent's hopes and wishes.

Twelfth House: enemies, suffering, difficulties, any secret matter, imprisonment, large animals, the querent's fears.



The querent and the quesited (the subject of the divination) are each assigned to one of the twelve houses. The querent is always shown by the first house, but the quesited, depending on its nature, may be found in any of the other houses. So, whatever card is placed in the first house will be the significator of the querent, and whatever card that is found in the house of the quesited will be the significator of the quesited. The nature of the cards of the two significators, and the relationship between them are the main factors in interpretation for the astrological method.

More to come...



M
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Wow M, that is huge. Thanks for going into detail on it. I'm not too good with Astrology. Can't wait for more!

HoT
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Thumbs up


Dear my friend M...

1-Could you tell me aside the astrological right consideration,your scheme allude to Alchemy itself I mean in its inherent structure,so the stages of the Opus Alchemicum ?
2-Of course I m agree with you my Crab friend that the whole deck describes this process from Nigredo to Iosis

My best as always,

eugim
Top   #269
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Melanchollic:

Excellent!

Posts like that are what this forum is all about. Don't let anyone discourage you or tell you that you are "getting too deep". This is "History and Iconography" and we can go as deep as we want here.

Also, thanks for "quesited". I have been needing that word for a long time.

Best Wishes!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
Dear my friend M...

1-Could you tell me aside the astrological right consideration,your scheme allude to Alchemy itself I mean in its inherent structure,so the stages of the Opus Alchemicum ?
2-Of course I m agree with you my Crab friend that the whole deck describes this process from Nigredo to Iosis

My best as always,

eugim

Howdy Eugim,

The only thing 'alchemical' from the above is the 'shuffle/draw' method.. and I use the term 'alchemical' rather loosely. I call it 'alchemical' since the (shuffle) method picks the cards based on 'planetary' energy, in a similar way as to how the alchemists chose times and the kind of procedure based on the planetary ruler of a given day, or given hour, etc.. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same ol' astrology spread Grandma used. Of course, the shuffle method is completely optional when doing an astrological reading.

M
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Smile


I got it Crab M...

Gryphon E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kircher Tree
Posts like that are what this forum is all about. Don't let anyone discourage you or tell you that you are "getting too deep". This is "History and Iconography" and we can go as deep as we want here.
Kircher Tree failed to really read my whole post-- the one that obviously inspired this juvenile response from Kircher Tree.

Having said that, it's only a forum.
If this is to be the clique, then enjoy.

(ironic smiley face placed here)
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*Gets out her big wooden spoon and threatens you both with it*

Now boys, ya'll play nice now.. plenty of room for everyone's opinions.

HoT
Top   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
as I exit stage left.
Paul:

I hope you do not exit, either left or right. Some of the ideas that you have come up with are fairly deep. (And I think that is a good thing, as I have said before.)
Top   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kircher Tree
Paul:

Some of the ideas that you have come up with are fairly deep.
The Wizard (covering up with the curtain): The Great Oz has spoken. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....the...Great...er...Oz has spoken.
Dorothy (pulling aside the curtain and reprimanding): Who are you?
The Wizard: (stuttering) I, I, I am the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz.
Dorothy: You are! I don't believe you.
The Wizard: I'm afraid it's true. There's no other Wizard except me.

And that folks, is the writing on the wall...
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Talking


Say, while ya got your wooden spoon out Hooked, why not whip us all up a nice batch of chocolate chip cookies???

I got my milk ready..


M
Top   #277
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Dee-luxe Illustrated Example Readings - Part 2


Example #1




The querent has applied for the graduate program at the University of Kyoto, and wants to know if she'll be accepted. The question is a ninth house matter (education), and the Seven of Cups appears there. The Three of Cups appears in the first house, and represents the querent. Cups are the most fortuitous of the suits, so this would be a clear 'yes', both querent and quesited being positive.

Answering the querent's question, if one's methods are logical and sound, should be able to be done at a glance. Getting the 'whys' and 'hows' is a more subtle art. So, what else can be determined from these cards? Both cards are odd. What about odd numbers could be of relevance and interest to our querent? I'd say mobility (versus stability in the even numbers), which is suggestive of speed. The news of our querent's acceptance should arrive relatively soon.

Occupation

Occupation is an idea I borrowed from geomancy, and refers to when the same geomantic figure occupies both the house of the querent, and the house of the quesited. Of course with tarot, each card is different, but they do have some degree of 'sameness'; the same suit, the same number, the same court position - King, Knight, etc.. Here is how I work with Occupation.

If the significator of the querent, and the significator of the quesited are -

the same suit: this always means 'yes', pure and simple, regardless if it's a positive suit (cups, coins), or a negative suit (swords, batons). If both houses are occupied by CUPS (as here), this suggests the querent will be happy with the result, (so, here our querent will be accepted to the university and it will be 'a pleasure'). COINS - the same, but to a slightly more 'frugal' degree. If both houses are occupied by BATONS, again a 'yes', but the result will require 'labor' to achieve or maintain. Occupation by two SWORDS, 'yes', but it will entail 'strife', and the querent may regret it.

the same number: this means that, even if the suit emblems indicate a 'no', some sort of connection, usually deducible from the number, will be made. For example if in the above reading the quesited had been a Three of Swords - even though the answer would be 'no', the admissions worker could be a possible source of advice about an alternative path (three being symbolic of the birth of ideas) for our querent, so I'd suggest to the querent to write or call this person and ask them for advice.

the same court: this means that, like the suit emblems, a connection will be made, but of a more personal nature (the courts being 'persons'). In our current example, if the querent was signified by the Queen of Cups, and the Quesited was signified by the Queen of Swords, the answer would still be 'no', and I'd still suggest that the Querent contact the admissions office and talk to this person, but this time, the cards suggest it is more likely that the two will strike up a friendship or longer term association beyond just this one time.



More to come....


M
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*carries out a fresh batch of homemade Devil's Delight Chocolate cookies, fresh from the oven, with sticky chocolate glaze all over it, offers it to everyone at the table*

MMMMM, good idea M!

I will have to read your last post a few times to grasp it all.. lol

HoT
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Mel, you use all 78 cards, I see. I agree i think that the answer is yes, because 7 is a good Pythagorean number, 4 plus the sitter's own 3. I also note the luxuriant foliage on the 7, the leaves of the 3 continue to grow & flourish. "Rising" as Enrique would say, I think.

I guess my question is about the speed thing, because i tend to associate 8s as the active moving number. So I'd like to hear more about that even-odd thing of yours.

Also, what do you do with all these other cards? Ignore 'em? Is this the actual spread on that you show to the sitter? On this chart-paper? And does it say something that this sitter seems to have so little baton-energy at this time? Only one baton card? What would the 2 7s say to you?
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Oh Mel, you've been hiding your light under a bushel (mound of chocolate cakes?). This is a GREAT spread! I'm waiting now for the next installment.... are you gonna use Witnesses & the Judge? (Geomancy).

HoT, thank you for the cookies.

Bee
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Dear M...
Seems as you became the Marcello Mastroianni of Aeclectic for the Gaaarrrllllsssss !

Congratuations !

Gryphon E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
I guess my question is about the speed thing, because i tend to associate 8s as the active moving number. So I'd like to hear more about that even-odd thing of yours.
In The Metaphysics, Aristotle writes,

"Other members of this same school (the Pythagoreans) say there are ten principles, which they arrange in two columns of cognates - limit and unlimited, odd and even, one and plurality, right and left, male and female, resting and moving, straight and curved, light and darkness, good and bad, square and oblong. In this way Alcmaeon of Croton seems also to have conceived the matter, and either he got this view from them or they got it from him; for he expressed himself similarly to them. For he says most human affairs go in pairs, meaning not definite contrarieties such as the Pythagoreans speak of, but any chance contrarieties, e.g. white and black, sweet and bitter, good and bad, great and small. He threw out indefinite suggestions about the other contrarieties, but the Pythagoreans declared both how many and which their contraricties are."

Quote:

*Aristotle's Chart of Opposition*


Limited.............Unlimited

Odd..................Even

One..................Plurality

Right................Left

Male................Female

At Rest............Moving

Straight...........Crooked

Light...............Darkness

Good...............Bad

Square............Oblong


And, my slightly reworded version..




Quote:

*Melanchollic's Chart of Opposition*


ODD...........................EVEN

indivisible.................divisible

singular....................plural

right...........................left

male......................female

active.....................passive

direct.....................indirect

fluctuating.................stable

I've switched active (moving) and passive (at rest) from Aristotle.

Due to the associations of the square and solidity with the tetrad (4), the hexad (6) being the first solid number (even if scalene, nevertheless it is three-diminsional because of its means), and symbolic of harmony and order, the Octad being the first actual cube and the eighth sphere being that of the fixed stars, I tend to view the even numbers as being 'at rest' and 'passive', though the position could certainly be argued against. Hopefully Aristotle isn't reading this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
Also, what do you do with all these other cards? Ignore 'em?
Yes. Generally, just the relavant houses are looked at, which of course is the same for a horary or geomancy reading. There are certain times when other cards may be considered to play a minor role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
Is this the actual spread on that you show to the sitter? On this chart-paper?
Pretty much, yes. I arrange the cards a bit tighter, with about 1 cm between them, but without the 'chart-paper'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
And does it say something that this sitter seems to have so little baton-energy at this time? Only one baton card?
For this type of specific question reading, no. For an 'overview' type reading I look at the overall 'goodness' of the figure by comparing malefic and benefic elements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
What would the two 7s say to you?
In this particular reading, it would tell me that the University of Kyoto had recently undergone some sort of examination by an institutional accrediting organization, and this event had indirectly had a positive influence on the querent's acceptance to the university.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
Dear M...
Seems as you became the Marcello Mastroianni of Aeclectic for the Gaaarrrllllsssss !

Congratuations !
Drats!! I was really shooting to be the John Cusack of Aeclectic.




More to come...

M
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The 2 7s: Yes Mel, I would agree. But would probably have used less eloquent phrasing

Loving your system. I've digested your illustrated de-luxe post and eaten the cookies. More please.

Bee
Top   #284
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Smile


You re a little diavolo !!!
John Cusack is Cancer born as you are... (28/06)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:J...cropped%29.jpg
-Another crab !!!

My best,

Gryphon E
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M:
Could we add Funk (Fonk) opposite to Metal Rock ?
So Cameo -Iron Maiden ?

Sorry...
Top   #286
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Dee-luxe Illustrated Example Readings - Part 3


Example #2



Okay. Let's look at one that's a bit harder, and makes use of more of the cards. The querent has had a fight with his girlfriend and wants to know if there is hope for reconciliation. The card in the first house, the house of the querent, is the Eight of Coins, and in the seventh house, the house of the querent's girlfriend, is the Valet of Baton.

So, following my Rule of Thumb #1, I'll start general, and then beam in to specifics. The quick answer is "Maybe". "Ta-Dah!! That'll be 20 bucks mister... and have a nice day." The querent is moderately positive (Coins), and the quesited is moderately negative (Batons). Pretty vague. We're going to have to dip into the ol' toolbox for this one...


Conjunction

Here is another method I've shamelessly stolen from medieval Geomancy. Conjunction is when one of the significators, either by suit or by number, passes to a house next to the house of the other significator. Conjunction is seen as a positive thing (slightly lesser so than occupation), showing a 'connection' between the querent and the quesited. When the querent's significator passes to a conjunction with that of the quesited, as shown in this example, the querent will achieve what he or she wants, but will have to work for it (go to it). When the significator of the quesited passes into a conjunction with that of the querent, on the other hand, no effort by the querent is needed (it comes to them).

So, in our example, the querent is a Coin, and there is a Coin in the house next to the quesited. We have conjunction. This shows that if he makes an effort, and goes to her, a reconciliation is possible. She won't come to him though.


Passing

Passing is just a fancy way Geomancers use to say that the same figure is in more than one place in the chart. The passing of a significator, either by suit or by number, should be examined, even though it may have no direct relationship on the outcome of the question. It may show the motivations of those signified, helping us to determine some of the 'whys'. There are several good examples of passing in this reading.

We've already seen how the passing of the Five of Coins gives us a conjunction with the quesited. We find an eight (of Batons) in the 10th house which relates to the querent. The 10th house rules career. The batons are symbolic of laboring. We can deduce the querent is focused on the demands of his job, and this may have been a source of friction in the relationship. We also find an eight (of Swords) in the twelfth house. The twelfth is the house of secret enemies. The presence of some nasty malefic swords is not good. Someone may be working against our hero in this affair!

Now let's look at the girlfriend, who is signified by the Valet of Batons. There is another Valet (Cups) in the third, and the Two of Batons in the fifth. As these cards relate to the person represented by the 7th house, we have to examine these cards in relationship to the 7th. This is called Turning the Chart. So the 3rd house of the querent becomes the 9th house of the girlfriend, because it is the ninth house from the 7th house. So the 9th house of the querent is not his girlfriend's 9th house. Just start at the significator of the girlfriend, she being 1, and count the houses till you get to the Valet of Cups. There are nine, right? Similarly, the Two of Batons is in the girlfriend's 11th house.

The 9th house represents travel. This may be an indication she is hoping to take a trip. Our hero might suggest a trip in order to win her back.

The eleventh house represents friends. The 'two' card can show something divisive. A divisive friend? This, coupled with our querent's "secret enemy' in his twelfth house, show that one of the girlfriend's friends has been 'bad-mouthing' our hero, and influencing the situation.

So, what would I tell the querent?

"A reconciliation is possible, but it must be initiated by you. She doesn't like the amount of time you spend working, and wants you to devote more time to her. Also, one or more of her friends have been speaking against you. You might suggest the two of you take a holiday somewhere together."

Our first quick impression of "maybe" still holds true, but now we have some of the possible 'whys' and 'hows', so the querent has a little more to work with when considering the best approach to making the reconciliation.


Mel
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Whoa! Mel! Wig me out! Kewl.

Ok just a gazillion questions. If the 2 of Batons is next to the girlfriend's Valet Batons, why doesn't the 10 of Batons also "belong" to the girlfriend? It is next to her or "passing" too, isn't it?

And "turning the chart" -- you are always counting counterclockwise? Just to start. . .
Top   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
Whoa! Mel! Wig me out! Kewl.

Ok just a gazillion questions. If the 2 of Batons is next to the girlfriend's Valet Batons, why doesn't the 10 of Batons also "belong" to the girlfriend? It is next to her or "passing" too, isn't it?

And "turning the chart" -- you are always counting counterclockwise? Just to start. . .
Hi frelkins,

You mean the 8 of Batons (in the 10th) house, right? Yes! Well spotted! It would be a card to look at. This might require a little 'grilling' of the querent. This would be the girlfriend's 4th house. The 4th could symbolize her property, or her home life, or her parents in general, any of which may be in a 'labored' state, contributing to the couples friction. A little feedback from the querent might help verify exactly what it means. The card might also simply be showing that his work situation is directly affecting her.

Yes, the turning always moves counterclockwise. The peculiarities of the astrological chart, are of course based on actual astronomical movement, even when they've been commandeered by geomancers and tarot readers.
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thanks Mel. Think I'm getting this. Ok, so what about the "mutation" & "translation?"

Btw, is that deck the big USG Visconti or the LS Gold?
Top   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
thanks Mel. Think I'm getting this.

Btw, is that deck the big USG Visconti or the LS Gold?

That's the Dal Negro I Tarocchi dei Visconti Sforza. (Mmm. Sounds good enough to eat!)


M
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thanks mel. i do love the visconti, it is one of the nicest decks. but the vines and leaves on it are quite different than a TdM, more "ruglike," more arabic. how do you use them in your interpretation?
Top   #292
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Still with you....

However, miniscule difference = I lay mine out in a circle - takes up more space but is easier to see across from house to house.

Had another thought.... this can also be used for timing (of the day & time of year).

Bee
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Thumbs up


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernice
Still with you....

However, miniscule difference = I lay mine out in a circle - takes up more space but is easier to see across from house to house.
I prefer like Mel to use the square chart spread (though I interpret it sleightly differently), I don't find any problem seeing connections between the houses and it takes less space.

Great examples Mel :thumbs up:

Looking forward to seeing the rest of the tool set in action.
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What if the four elements were aligned with the subjects in the quadrivium: arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy (astrology)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrivium

This is an interesting article that aligns the 5 elements with so-called the "quadrivium":

http://www.adwaitha-hermitage.net/reminisc/quinti.html

...with the tarot sometimes referred to as having five elements (Majors being the element "ether").

This occurred to me as I was trying to make sense out of the elements cards in the Minchiate.
Top   #295
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One More, for Old Times Sake...


Example #3




The querent asks if there will be any inheritance money for him from his grandfather, who is near death.

The querent, as always, is represented by the first house, here the Hermit. Now we have to find Grandpa's money. This requires we turn the chart. Grandpa is the 7th house (our father's father - 4th from the 4th) His money would be the 2nd house from the 7th, so the 8th. How much has he got? Four of Cups' worth. That sounds pretty good. So, is our greedy little querent going to get any?


Translation

Translation shows a modest connection between the significators. Translation is when the same figure, a figure other than either of the significators, appears in houses next to those of the querent and the quesited. In our example, the Seven of Batons sits next to the querent, in the twelfth, and the Ace of Baton sits next to the quesited in the 7th. We do indeed have a modest connection. Unfortunately, the connection is a 'Baton' connection. This means getting some of the money will require some effort.

What else can we learn? We have a four (of Coins) in the 10th house. This would be the 4th from the 7th, Grandpa's estate. We can assume that a good deal of the money will be going to the estate, here meaning Grandma. We also have a four (of Swords) in the 11th house. This would be the 5th from the 7th, Grandpa's pleasures. So, Grandma will have to use some of the money to finish paying off Grandpa's boat.

So, our querent will have to decide whether or not the modest amount of money he may be able to receive will be worth the effort it takes to get it.


And thanks everyone. I'm glad people found the method useful (or at least entertaining).




M
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1 This is fabulous, Mel. It's rare someone can explain their method so well.

2 what is this gorgeous deck? I must have this deck! I lust after this deck.

3 Don't think you can escape without also discussing mutation!

4 Also on the passing thing does the queen of cups next to the 4 here she'd any light on the amount or quality of cash? For some reason I think it might be the Grandma herself or am I mistaking the houses? I still have some questions after this if you don't mind...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins

2 what is this gorgeous deck? I must have this deck! I lust after this deck.
I think its the Vachetta.

There is a set of black & white images you can print and color yourself here:

http://altreligion.about.com/od/vacc...etta_Tarot.htm

Here is a set colored in by Fred Hinojosa (click next button to go through the gallery):

http://altreligion.about.com/od/vacc...taTarot011.htm

Other decks from the same site indexed here:
http://altreligion.about.com/od/taro...es_and_art.htm
Top   #298
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Just WOW, M. I have three pages written out, front and back. This is so complicated! I think this method of reading is a study in itself! I suspect it will take a lot of practice to get the hang of this, but I'm always up for the challenge!

Thank you SO MUCH for sharing this.

Hooked
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Thanks for those links Kwaw. I've got my crayon ready.

Yes, that's Giovanni Vacchetta's Tarot from 1893. Those above are the Lo Scarabeo version, called the Tarot of the Master. I cropped the offensive borders.

I'm not sure why, but there is one going for $2474.99 on Amazon used.

http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Master-L.../dp/0738702366

It ain't THAT pretty!


Here's the Aecletic review -

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards...r/review.shtml

Quote:
Originally Posted by frelkins
Also on the passing thing does the queen of cups next to the 4 here she'd any light on the amount or quality of cash? For some reason I think it might be the Grandma herself or am I mistaking the houses? I still have some questions after this if you don't mind...
Yes. The Queen of Cups seems to want to be Grandma, and if we 'stretched the rules' a bit we could view her in that respect. Going strictly by the 'system' the first choice for Grandma would be the 7th from the 7th, Grandpa's partner, but that is also the house of the querent. The second choice would be the fourth, as the representative of Grandpa's estate. Our Cup Queen is 3rd from the 7th, making it Grandpa's siblings, neighbor's, news and rumours, letters, and short everyday journeys (like down to Starbuck's). If Grandpa had a sister, it would show she'd be getting a "slice of the pie", but Grandpa is an only child. That leaves a couple of possibilities:

1) Grandpa is leaving some money to a neighborhood organization.

2)This is the one I'm leaning to - it is the money of the money (2nd from the 2nd), or the interest and profits on Grandpa's various savings and investments. He's made some good investment choices. Some of these may not automatically handover earned moneys of the deceased, and may have to be claimed and/or applied for. This might be where our querent can get a larger slice of the pie, if he's willing to look into it, and go to the trouble, as suggested by the 'translation' of the Batons.


M
Top   #300

 

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