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l'appeso 
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Thanks for the link, truly informative

(Ross’ note – from a purely chronological point of view, what is striking about this description is “the four Evangelists.” This must refer to the typical design of the World card in the “Tarot de Marseille”, which therefore already existed by the 1580s in France)...

This is really the point...

so can we argue then that the earliest examples of TdM we have (noblet?) are simply following an older tradition?

I started thinking about that because TdM design and carachter clothes didn't fit with 17th century style...
(this is also the case for some italian regional decks which are still used today)
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DoctorArcanus 
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Ciao Appeso

Here and here we had long discussions about the costumes that appear in the Cary Sheet. Details like the "pattens", the gothic desk of the Bagat, the "slit sleeves" seem to suggest the second half of the XV Century for these engravings.

Those details are missing in the Noblet. It would be interesting to look for cognates of the most peculiar elements, such as the hats and hair-dresses of the Beteleur, la Force, l'Empereur.

About the four evangelists, they were also mentioned by Francesco Piscina (1565).



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l'appeso 
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very interesting...

I found in some Cranach's paintings the force-bateleur hat (well, kind of)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/93051314@N00/2950055370/

http://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpres...6/04judith.jpg

http://akachestylarue.typepad.com/.a...25f2970b-500wi

like the pattens could it be a german-flemish attire?
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DoctorArcanus 
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If we are talking about the Noblet, the Bateleur's hat looks to me very different from the hair-dress of La Force.

The Bateleur's hat has a semi-spherical crown and a symmetrically undulated brim. The hat looks to me more similar to this one than to Cranach's examples.

La Force seems to be wearing a crown, with a long extension downward-sloping at the back and a shorter extension at the front. The two extensions might also be some kind of hair-dress. In particular, at the back there is a pattern that suggests some kind of net. This is definitely more difficult to make sense of.



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Et ecce equus albus et qui sedebat super illum habebat arcum - And behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow.

Last edited by DoctorArcanus; 15-11-2011 at 07:16.
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l'appeso 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorArcanus View Post
La Force seems to be wearing a crown, with a long extension downward-sloping at the back and a shorter extension at the front. The two extensions might also be some kind of hair-dress. In particular, at the back there is a pattern that suggests some kind of net. This is definitely more difficult to make sense of.
Yes, La Force's hat is really weird, are there maybe feathers on her hat?
and what about le diable?
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DoctorArcanus 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l'appeso View Post
and what about le diable?
I think the Devil is harder to use for dating the deck, because he is a non-human figure, whose representation was stereotyped and possibly did not change much after the Middle Ages. Costumes seem to me the most accessible route towards an analysis of the period in which the deck was engraved.

Anyway, here is a good analogue for the Noblet Devil:
http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...start=30#p3890



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l'appeso 
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I was thinking about the Noblet devil's hat... really weird, this is not really the typical medieval representation, imho. also his horns... almost insect-like! at least the bonnet makes him more human
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