CHESS and Tarot?

**firemaiden** · 15-08-2003

Huck wrote in evolution of the tarot , the Tarot "stands in a long row with other objects in history, which also once had use as divination tool and some of these are still alive. Astrology, Geomancy, I-Ching etc. are well known examples nowadays, but creativity did lead mankind to use more or less anything in this way. The Bible (together with a knife), the left hand, the flying of birds, the rest of the coffee, dreams, throwing chess figures on a chess-board.."

Chess! Chess has

King
Queen
Knight
Pawn
Castle (Tower?)
Bishop (Pope?)

and of course, "Schach mat"

Well? Do you think that the game of chess played a role in the evolution of tarot??

Huck · 15-08-2003

Chess diviation was done in China, as far I remember.

Chess in context with Tarot?

autorbis in his complicated world keeps it as a strong possibility, that the Cary-Yale, done rather early (perhaps 1428, perhaps 1441) for Filippo Maria Visconti, was influenced in its original form by Chess and the same notorious Chess-player Filippo Visconti (had an own chess-club at his court in 1427, and there was a visit of a master-player in 1429) in that way, that it had originally 64 pip and court cards and 16 trumps. 64 cause the 64 fields of a chess-board and 16 trump cards cause the 16 figures used by one player. This is only a suggestion by autorbis, he himself sees also other possibilites, but according to his analyses this is most likely.

http://geocities.com/autorbis/VMnew.html

Further he mentioned in personal talk, that the Goldchmidt and Guildhall cards have strange figures and the presence of a bishop there + the chequered ground (also in another deck, I forgot the name) point in the same direction: Chess took an influence. autorbis sees it as an early version, that was overcome by the later development, autorbis assumes, that the 5x14-deck (not related to chess) were much more farspread than any 5x16-version in the early phase (which happened before the idea to a deck with 22 special cards was born). See his opinion at:

http://geocities.com/autorbis/pbm14new.html

Pratesi, who is known for his studies and explorations about the Michelino-deck and the card sitution in Florence made also suggestions in direction to chess (Pratesi is a general game-researcher, not fixed upon Tarot, who also made some worthful explorations in the field of Chess, Checkers and Go), although based on other considerations, the backgrounds are not totally clear to me.

An excessive visit to

http://games.rengeekcentral.com/

(please detect the Appendix) might show you, that the interest in Chess and other games was very high and full of experiments, they didn't play only in one way with a game and explored also variants. This spirit should also assumed for the development of playing card decks. Although this book is of Spain and of King Alfonso and of 13th century, it might well tell something about Filippo Visconti's habits and ways to experiment with games.

**firemaiden** · 15-08-2003

Fantastically interesting, Huck, thank you. What an encyclopaedia you are!

Rusty Neon · 15-08-2003

This is not something I'm into, but, as it's sort of on topic, here's a link about an Enochian chess set and its use in divination:

http://www.multi.co.uk/echess.html

However, the Enochian chess system described in the Golden Dawn manuscripts has more express correspondences with tarot.

catlin · 15-08-2003

maybe you can find some more information on that subject in the Nigel Pennick book about games (sorry I don't know the Enlish title as I only got the German edition).

pan · 22-10-2003

the one to one numeric correlation of chess to tarot seems to be unlikely as a mere accident. 16
court cards and 16 peices per player.

Trying to grasp the exact correspondence seems a bit more difficult, but i think its best to run
with occams razor as far as one can go. The castles are obvious earth element, leaving air, fire, water, to everything else.For some reason i am partial to thinking of knights as fire, but i could be swayed also to go for them as air. Bishops seem water to me, that would leave air for
king and queen.

What seems more important to my mind is the numerology of the board itself. 8 times 8 = 64
squares, 24 major arcana plus 40 numeric cards is
also 64. The tarot cycle or wheel of the year is expressed as three rings around a solid center,
take your pencil and make the rings. Theres just enough room for it.

I play a lot of chess, and sometimes loose when
i start "reading" the game...lol

pan · 22-10-2003

Well? Do you think that the game of chess played a role in the evolution of tarot??
----------
No, the reverse.
chess is derivative of tarot.

Huck · 22-10-2003

Yes :-)
---------
No :-(

... as long you do follow the rules of our standard imagination about time.

pan · 23-10-2003

thanks rusty neon...now i have yet another thing
i want to buy...
you folks will make me into a good capitalist yet!

pan · 23-10-2003

thanks huck, that was fascinating.
i like the way that the chess/tarot correspondence
is worked out.

firemaiden keeper of the toaster Join Date: 07 Jun 2002 Location: Poitiers, France Posts: 10,714	CHESS and Tarot? Huck wrote in evolution of the tarot , the Tarot "stands in a long row with other objects in history, which also once had use as divination tool and some of these are still alive. Astrology, Geomancy, I-Ching etc. are well known examples nowadays, but creativity did lead mankind to use more or less anything in this way. The Bible (together with a knife), the left hand, the flying of birds, the rest of the coffee, dreams, throwing chess figures on a chess-board.." Chess! Chess has King Queen Knight Pawn Castle (Tower?) Bishop (Pope?) and of course, "Schach mat" Well? Do you think that the game of chess played a role in the evolution of tarot??

15-08-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

Huck Citizen Join Date: 02 Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 2,332	Chess Chess diviation was done in China, as far I remember. Chess in context with Tarot? autorbis in his complicated world keeps it as a strong possibility, that the Cary-Yale, done rather early (perhaps 1428, perhaps 1441) for Filippo Maria Visconti, was influenced in its original form by Chess and the same notorious Chess-player Filippo Visconti (had an own chess-club at his court in 1427, and there was a visit of a master-player in 1429) in that way, that it had originally 64 pip and court cards and 16 trumps. 64 cause the 64 fields of a chess-board and 16 trump cards cause the 16 figures used by one player. This is only a suggestion by autorbis, he himself sees also other possibilites, but according to his analyses this is most likely. http://geocities.com/autorbis/VMnew.html Further he mentioned in personal talk, that the Goldchmidt and Guildhall cards have strange figures and the presence of a bishop there + the chequered ground (also in another deck, I forgot the name) point in the same direction: Chess took an influence. autorbis sees it as an early version, that was overcome by the later development, autorbis assumes, that the 5x14-deck (not related to chess) were much more farspread than any 5x16-version in the early phase (which happened before the idea to a deck with 22 special cards was born). See his opinion at: http://geocities.com/autorbis/pbm14new.html Pratesi, who is known for his studies and explorations about the Michelino-deck and the card sitution in Florence made also suggestions in direction to chess (Pratesi is a general game-researcher, not fixed upon Tarot, who also made some worthful explorations in the field of Chess, Checkers and Go), although based on other considerations, the backgrounds are not totally clear to me. An excessive visit to http://games.rengeekcentral.com/ (please detect the Appendix) might show you, that the interest in Chess and other games was very high and full of experiments, they didn't play only in one way with a game and explored also variants. This spirit should also assumed for the development of playing card decks. Although this book is of Spain and of King Alfonso and of 13th century, it might well tell something about Filippo Visconti's habits and ways to experiment with games. __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk"

15-08-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Rusty Neon Citizen Join Date: 12 Mar 2003 Location: Land of Snow and Ice (O Canada) Posts: 4,843	Golden Dawn's Enochian Chess as a system of divination This is not something I'm into, but, as it's sort of on topic, here's a link about an Enochian chess set and its use in divination: http://www.multi.co.uk/echess.html However, the Enochian chess system described in the Golden Dawn manuscripts has more express correspondences with tarot. Last edited by Rusty Neon; 15-08-2003 at 15:41.

15-08-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

Huck Citizen Join Date: 02 Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 2,332	Yes :-) --------- No :-( ... as long you do follow the rules of our standard imagination about time. __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk" Last edited by Huck; 22-10-2003 at 14:21.

22-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #8

catlin Citizen Join Date: 06 Aug 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 4,591	maybe you can find some more information on that subject in the Nigel Pennick book about games (sorry I don't know the Enlish title as I only got the German edition).

15-08-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

pan Citizen Join Date: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 113	the one to one numeric correlation of chess to tarot seems to be unlikely as a mere accident. 16 court cards and 16 peices per player. Trying to grasp the exact correspondence seems a bit more difficult, but i think its best to run with occams razor as far as one can go. The castles are obvious earth element, leaving air, fire, water, to everything else.For some reason i am partial to thinking of knights as fire, but i could be swayed also to go for them as air. Bishops seem water to me, that would leave air for king and queen. What seems more important to my mind is the numerology of the board itself. 8 times 8 = 64 squares, 24 major arcana plus 40 numeric cards is also 64. The tarot cycle or wheel of the year is expressed as three rings around a solid center, take your pencil and make the rings. Theres just enough room for it. I play a lot of chess, and sometimes loose when i start "reading" the game...lol

22-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

pan Citizen Join Date: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 113	thanks rusty neon...now i have yet another thing i want to buy... you folks will make me into a good capitalist yet!

23-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #9

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