To Tell Or Not To Tell...

Venusian

That is the question.

Okay I admit, I've had a couple (or few) glasses of red wine so perhaps I'm contemplating a little too much.

However, my question is still a very valid one. One in which I am curious about the (potential) responses from seasoned Astrologers here on the board.

Before I dive into it I will preface my question by giving a little bit of background on my experiences in the science of Astrology.

I was introduced to Astrology by my grandmother at a very young age. She cast charts by hand, with a compass, pencil and an acute knowledge of mathematics. When I was born she had my chart read by another professional who apparently made some revelations about my chart to my grandmother. Not one day did my grandmother ever mention to me that she had my chart read by anyone until one day when I was in my 30s and we were in the midst of an emotional discussion. She blurted out, "You were supposed to be famous!", in a tone that kind of hinted at her disappointment in how my life had actually turned out.

By this point I myself had already been studying Astrology for more than 20 years, but only seriously for about 10. While I had never looked at my chart and saw any kind of "celebrity" or "recognition", at least two other Astrologers had and they mentioned it to me, though they downplayed it. Within the past couple of years another person mentioned it to me (a stranger with whom I quickly changed the subject), and that time I was the one who downplayed it because I didn't want to hear about something that was only a reminder of my failure. And perhaps it was the they way she said it as well, much the same way that my grandmother presented it, "You were SUPPOSED TO BE famous". Like, literally almost the exact same quote as ol' bitter Nana.

Anywho, my question is this:

As an Astrologer, have you ever seen perhaps seen the strong signatures of something in an individual's natal, and perhaps made a conscious decision to not mention it for fear that the querent may feel like a failure when/if it doesn't manifest in their life?

In my case, looking back, I think that I would have rather not been told. Though I recognize that Astrologers waited until they felt I may have been mature or spiritual enough to handle and process such information in a healthy way, years later as I look back I still feel that it would be easier on my psyche now if I didn't know that I was "supposed to be" successful and just dropped the ball somehow along the way in life. Or even yet, on my 99th birthday, all of a sudden I will get recognition for all my life's hard work. LOL Like seriously, some things you would just rather not even know.

So I suppose my question would really only applies to Astrologers who have years of experience in Astrology rather than those who may not have experience but rather have strong opinions.

As an Astrologer, what are your experiences with this kind of scenario? To tell, or not to tell? How do you feel about this?

Thx

StarSeer

dadsnook2000

You always tell what you see

Why do a chart for someone and then choose to hide what you see. You may be right, you may be wrong, but if you see it then you talk about it. That's the key, you "talk" about it.

If you see a coming disaster, you inquire more deeply about the context of the subject's current life and direction. If the subject's life supports the possibility of a disaster, as you see it, then you need to explore what can lead up to a crises point, what risks are involved in what the person is doing, and how the "timing" of possible risks fits with their perception of their schedule of likely events. You frame what "might be" in terms of how they have experienced this transit or pattern the last time it happened. Life's history tends to repeat itself in similar ways.

If you see a coming opportunity, you can follow much of the same approach but do so more directly and openly ---- there is no need to gingerly approach the topic. Opportunities are good things in most cases. Again, what leads up to it, what is needed to prepare for what might happen, how can one take advantage of an opportunity? Not being ready may mean that someone will actually miss the opportunity. Knock, knock.

If you see something but don't know what it might mean, you can talk about the current context of the subject's life, about how the person has used the involved symbols in the past. This can be seen in prior similar transits to the planets or angles involved. Dave

Venusian

dadsnook2000 said:
Why do a chart for someone and then choose to hide what you see. You may be right, you may be wrong, but if you see it then you talk about it. That's the key, you "talk" about it.

If you see a coming disaster, you inquire more deeply about the context of the subject's current life and direction. If the subject's life supports the possibility of a disaster, as you see it, then you need to explore what can lead up to a crises point, what risks are involved in what the person is doing, and how the "timing" of possible risks fits with their perception of their schedule of likely events. You frame what "might be" in terms of how they have experienced this transit or pattern the last time it happened. Life's history tends to repeat itself in similar ways.

If you see a coming opportunity, you can follow much of the same approach but do so more directly and openly ---- there is no need to gingerly approach the topic. Opportunities are good things in most cases. Again, what leads up to it, what is needed to prepare for what might happen, how can one take advantage of an opportunity? Not being ready may mean that someone will actually miss the opportunity. Knock, knock.

If you see something but don't know what it might mean, you can talk about the current context of the subject's life, about how the person has used the involved symbols in the past. This can be seen in prior similar transits to the planets or angles involved. Dave

Good point. But what if you see signatures in a querent's chart about something that they did not necessarily need to know.

As my original question was:

starseer said:
As an Astrologer, have you ever seen perhaps seen the strong signatures of something in an individual's natal, and perhaps made a conscious decision to not mention it for fear that the querent may feel like a failure when/if it doesn't manifest in their life?

Implying that I am not speaking about something that is life threatening or life-saving, but rather something that is not necessary to know. As in my case. As Astrologer's we have a moral obligation to speak up if we see danger, deceit, illness, difficult transits and the manifestation thereof in a chart if we are asked to read it. But does that also mean that one should have told Friedo Kahlo, "Hey, your life has been filled with pain, illness, abuse, turmoil, but you can always look on the bright side. Postmortem your will gain world recognition beyond your wildest dreams!!!"

My point is, that last sentence really could be left out of the conversation w/ Freida Kahlo in a hypothetical consultation about her chart. Like, would it have benefit her in life to know that while largely unappreciated in life, in death she would be much appreciated. Would she really need to know that? I'm not so sure...

But then again, that is why I am attempting to get other perspectives as well.

dadsnook2000

Reply

starseer said, But does that also mean that one should have told Friedo Kahlo, "Hey, your life has been filled with pain, illness, abuse, turmoil, but you can always look on the bright side. Postmortem your will gain world recognition beyond your wildest dreams!!!"

That is a pathetic statement. Astrologers should not, in my opinion, engage in that type of a dialog with a client. Or a friend or family member. Or even with someone not liked. You could instead look at symbols that can be linked to their unwelcome experiences and then explore alternate ways that those symbols could be expressed. What could the person do to use those symbols and the time that they could be utilized to move in a different direction?

As I first noted, there is talking and then there is "talking" in a more productive way. Dave

Venusian

dadsnook2000 said:
That is a pathetic statement. Astrologers should not, in my opinion, engage in that type of a dialog with a client. Or a friend or family member. Or even with someone not liked. You could instead look at symbols that can be linked to their unwelcome experiences and then explore alternate ways that those symbols could be expressed. What could the person do to use those symbols and the time that they could be utilized to move in a different direction?

As I first noted, there is talking and then there is "talking" in a more productive way. Dave

You have a very good point here.

I once had an Intuitive Astrologer look at my chart (I was in my 20s at the time), look back up at me, and say, "People don't like you!".

I took it in stride. But yet, that incident came to mind just now as I read your statement.

StarSeer

MareSaturni

starseer said:
Implying that I am not speaking about something that is life threatening or life-saving, but rather something that is not necessary to know. As in my case. As Astrologer's we have a moral obligation to speak up if we see danger, deceit, illness, difficult transits and the manifestation thereof in a chart if we are asked to read it. But does that also mean that one should have told Friedo Kahlo, "Hey, your life has been filled with pain, illness, abuse, turmoil, but you can always look on the bright side. Postmortem your will gain world recognition beyond your wildest dreams!!!"

My point is, that last sentence really could be left out of the conversation w/ Freida Kahlo in a hypothetical consultation about her chart. Like, would it have benefit her in life to know that while largely unappreciated in life, in death she would be much appreciated. Would she really need to know that? I'm not so sure...

But then again, that is why I am attempting to get other perspectives as well.

Starseer, I am by no means an astrologer... just a student in my first steps, as my often confused posts attest... I hope you don't me sharing my views.

As a card reader, I have always tried to deliver the messages in a way that is empowering. Shit happens, that's the truth. People confronted with complicated issues often develop a tunnel vision, and as advisers (as often card readers and astrologer are), we have to help them to see things in perspective... preferably one that gives them the strength to get up. Preferably one that reminds them that the power is in their hands for almost everything.

The truth is that no astrologer can tell for sure how someone will use the potentials they have in their natal charts. They can tell you how you can better develop a quality, or to avoid something that could be dangerous... but know for SURE the situation and choices involved in awakening one's latent power? Impossible. Frida Kahlo's horrible streetcar accident was what made her paint (she has studied art before, but she really began to paint while recovering)... and the pains in her life inspired her unique art.

Still, it doesn't mean someone should not be informed of any possible talents or latent capacities they may have.

I think that when you grandmother said 'you were supposed to be famous', she was believing that all map potentials come true by themselves. If that was true we wouldn't need brains, we wouldn't need to move. She didn't take into consideration the fact that you can think, that you decide for yourself, and that you may look to fame and say "not what I want". Or that you may one day leave the room right before fame comes in.

Whether this be good or not, depends on you and what you want from your life - another thing a natal chart can't say for sure (although it can indicate in which direction you are most likely to head to).

I think it was not the message per se that was a problem, but the way it was delivered. Take my chart, for instance - it's a hell of a boring chart. LOL! If I decided to take my impulse to live out if it, I'd rather stay home watching TV all day. Maybe my life will be boring for many standards, but I know it's in my hands the power to make it good for myself. The charts may hand you the lemons, but the lemonade is your job... and no astrologer will know for sure how it'll taste.

I think it's the astrologer's job to let you know the good and bad things. You have to trust that the person can take the message, but also have to make sure that you message is helpful to the person, and not disempowering (even good messages can be disempowering).

This gives you the opportunity to know the areas in which you are more likely to have problems... and take care of them. Or see in which areas you may succeed - and keep an eyes open for the opportunities. But it all depends on the astrologer's way of delivering - if he makes it seem like the chart cannot be challenged, or that it'll all happen by itself, he inspires the client to be passive. And in this case, some information can indeed be dangerous.

Venusian

Marina said:
Starseer, I am by no means an astrologer... just a student in my first steps, as my often confused posts attest... I hope you don't me sharing my views.

As a card reader, I have always tried to deliver the messages in a way that is empowering. Shit happens, that's the truth. People confronted with complicated issues often develop a tunnel vision, and as advisers (as often card readers and astrologer are), we have to help them to see things in perspective... preferably one that gives them the strength to get up. Preferably one that reminds them that the power is in their hands for almost everything.

The truth is that no astrologer can tell for sure how someone will use the potentials they have in their natal charts. They can tell you how you can better develop a quality, or to avoid something that could be dangerous... but know for SURE the situation and choices involved in awakening one's latent power? Impossible. Frida Kahlo's horrible streetcar accident was what made her paint (she has studied art before, but she really began to paint while recovering)... and the pains in her life inspired her unique art.

Still, it doesn't mean someone should not be informed of any possible talents or latent capacities they may have.

I think that when you grandmother said 'you were supposed to be famous', she was believing that all map potentials come true by themselves. If that was true we wouldn't need brains, we wouldn't need to move. She didn't take into consideration the fact that you can think, that you decide for yourself, and that you may look to fame and say "not what I want". Or that you may one day leave the room right before fame comes in.

Whether this be good or not, depends on you and what you want from your life - another thing a natal chart can't say for sure (although it can indicate in which direction you are most likely to head to).

I think it was not the message per se that was a problem, but the way it was delivered. Take my chart, for instance - it's a hell of a boring chart. LOL! If I decided to take my impulse to live out if it, I'd rather stay home watching TV all day. Maybe my life will be boring for many standards, but I know it's in my hands the power to make it good for myself. The charts may hand you the lemons, but the lemonade is your job... and no astrologer will know for sure how it'll taste.

I think it's the astrologer's job to let you know the good and bad things. You have to trust that the person can take the message, but also have to make sure that you message is helpful to the person, and not disempowering (even good messages can be disempowering).

This gives you the opportunity to know the areas in which you are more likely to have problems... and take care of them. Or see in which areas you may succeed - and keep an eyes open for the opportunities. But it all depends on the astrologer's way of delivering - if he makes it seem like the chart cannot be challenged, or that it'll all happen by itself, he inspires the client to be passive. And in this case, some information can indeed be dangerous.

Marina!!

Excellent insight! You brought up a couple things that I hadn't even considered.

Wow...

Minderwiz

There seems to be issues of general principle and also specific situation here. As a matter of general principle I agree with Dave but the implied conditions behind the general principle is that we are dealing with an adult or at least a child mature enough to discuss the 'prediction' AND the Astrologer is fairly certain of his or her conclusion.

Now to the specifics. In Starseer's specific case, her grandmother was the client and was told the 'prediction' (so the Astrologer did not withhold information). Starseer herself was a baby, so her grandmother could not hold a meaningful dialogue with her over the 'prediction'. The 'fault', if there is one, was that having chosen to introduce Starseer to Astrology as a child, her grandmother did not choose to discuss Starseer's natal chart with her and explore together the original reading. Indeed we do not know how far the consulting Astrologer tried to explain their conclusion or provide any guidance, or indeed whether the grandmother properly understood what was being said - and I don't mean the underlying Astrology but any caveats, advice, or other words of warning and limitatlon to put the prediction of success in context. Did your grandmother, simply latch on the words 'successs' and miss the rest?

I've come across situations where, as an Astrologer, I'm not sure about something in a person's natal chart. Sometimes I've discussed it immediately, sometimes I've waited till later on in the exchange and sometimes I've not raised the issue at all. The reason for this lies in the issue of whether a natal chart can be used for accurate prediction on it's own. Elsewhere Dave and I have commented that the natal chart gives a general statement, detailed predictions require derived charts. I don't see that you can predict - 'You WILL be a success' from a natal chart alone. You can say that there seem to be opportunities that will arise, or that there is a basic potential (ability) to achieve but you also need to take into account the person's temperament - is it achievement oriented, and recognise a right to make choices.

And that brings me to the grandmother's big mistake - having decided for whatever reason to keep quiet about the reading she commissioned, she should not in any way have raised an issue of 'failure'. Failure is where we do not achieve goals that we set ourselves or others set us with our agreement. There was no agreement here, no participation and no right to raise the issue at all.

Venusian

Minderwiz said:
Now to the specifics. In Starseer's specific case, her grandmother was the client and was told the 'prediction' (so the Astrologer did not withhold information). Starseer herself was a baby, so her grandmother could not hold a meaningful dialogue with her over the 'prediction'. The 'fault', if there is one, was that having chosen to introduce Starseer to Astrology as a child, her grandmother did not choose to discuss Starseer's natal chart with her and explore together the original reading.

Agree, agree, agree. I believe that what happened was that the lady who was my grandmother's mentor and teacher in Astrology took a look at my chart (I'm going to even go further and assume that this conversation took place while my grandmother was still in student phase, before she became adept), and saw certain signatures and made predictions. My grandmother, teaching me astrology, did not choose to disclose the statement about what I mentioned for obvious reasons, and I understand that. Once I was well into my 30s, she decides throw it into a conversation because at that point she was probably tired of waiting for this "prediction" to come to pass, as she was probably equally disappointed in me.

My point is, being that my grandmother is an Astrologer herself, I would have preferred that she not have even mentioned it all. There was no point and it served no purpose. As an Astrologer she seemed to lack compassion at that moment.

In my opinion.

Other Astrologers disagree apparently, which is why I wanted to provoke this discussion. I'm curious to know how others feel about such a situation.

Minderwiz said:
Did your grandmother, simply latch on the words 'successs' and miss the rest?

Relative to the particular conversation we were having at the time, it would seem so, yes.

Minderwiz said:
I don't see that you can predict - 'You WILL be a success' from a natal chart alone. You can say that there seem to be opportunities that will arise, or that there is a basic potential (ability) to achieve but you also need to take into account the person's temperament - is it achievement oriented, and recognise a right to make choices.

Yes I agree with you here, but I always seem to know Astrologers who can look at a famous individual's chart in hindsight and say, "AH Yes, see, here is this person's signature for fame" as if there aren't 100 other people born on the same day at the same time who are not famous. The dichotomy is interesting.

Minderwiz said:
And that brings me to the grandmother's big mistake - having decided for whatever reason to keep quiet about the reading she commissioned, she should not in any way have raised an issue of 'failure'. Failure is where we do not achieve goals that we set ourselves or others set us with our agreement. There was no agreement here, no participation and no right to raise the issue at all.

I agree. Thx

StarSeer

Minderwiz

starseer said:
Yes I agree with you here, but I always seem to know Astrologers who can look at a famous individual's chart in hindsight and say, "AH Yes, see, here is this person's signature for fame" as if there aren't 100 other people born on the same day at the same time who are not famous. The dichotomy is interesting.

StarSeer

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!!! Knowing what happened it's not difficult to find 'signatures' ether in the natal chart or in derived charts but that gives a certain inevitability to the life, which actually was never there during it. I remember a passage in Martin Gansen's book on Primary Directions about an interpretation of a PD relating to Mars. In the case Mars was the ruler of the MC - ruling career and professional status. Mars was situated in the first House, natally - a good position seemingly for career advancement - the ruler of profession being angular and in its own triplicity and in trine to the MC. By Primary Direction, Mars was due to conjunct the Ascendant around age 23. So this was interpreted as an indicator of Professional Advancement at this age - sounds a familiar type of prediction doesn't it

In the event the person concerned contracted severe glandular fever at this age and had to be hospitalised for a lengthy period. Now Mars is the natural ruler of fevers, and the Ascendant is a significator of the body and health. So a Mars type event did occur at the predicted age - but not the one expected.

Yes there are lots of people with charts similar to those of the famous - small differences in house and planet placement can make a significant difference but something that is rarely stated is that there's a range of 'promised' possible outcomes from one shared signature, each of which might individually show up in the lives of different people who have this signature in their charts.

To Tell Or Not To Tell...

Venusian

dadsnook2000

Venusian

dadsnook2000

Venusian

MareSaturni

Venusian

Minderwiz

Venusian

Minderwiz