A Challenge

dadsnook2000

in a concurrent post Minderwiz posted Hitler's natal chart. Commentary noted the issues of foretelling the direction he was to follow in his adult life, or even of knowing what was within his general character the led him on the path he took.

The list could explore 1) Hitler's natal chart as if we were just looking at character and general developmental trends, 2) explore progressions and/or directions to see where he was going in the years of politics, prison, and re-entry into politics prior to World War 2, and 3) approach these issues from any other perspective. Wikipedia gives a concise introduction into his early years which we could use as a common reference source. This would be one way for list members to improve their natal chart interpretive skills and to introduce themselves to other related chart methodologies. Dave
 

Minderwiz

For those who wish to take up Dave's challenge I've attached Hitler's natal chart

With a Libra Ascendant, Sun in Taurus and Moon conjunct Jupiter why did Hitler not turn out to be a monster?

We don't expect perfect answers, it's a problem that has faced Astrologers for over 70 years - but some thoughts on where we might look for clues. The detail of what he did may not be in his natal chart but surely the potential should be.....

I've redone the chart to include the outer planets and Chiron and to use Placidus cusps but there's no need to keep to those if you prefer to use different houses or planets and points.
 

Attachments

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Minderwiz

Moderator's note

These two posts started life in different threads but I think it's best if they become a separate thread.

Any comments or suggestions will be warmly appreciated
 

dadsnook2000

Getting started

Some of the many starting points for a broad ranging discussion could include:

** Sun and Mercury bracketing the Descendant angle.
** Venus closely conjoining Mars in the 7th house.
** The Moon-Jupiter pairing in the 3rd house.
** How the generational pattern (significant) of Neptune conjoining Pluto became personaized.
** The square of Saturn in the 10th to Venus-Mars.
** Uranus in the 12th, 7 degrees above the Ascendant, broadly opposite Sun-Mercury, and squaring the Moon's nodal axis.
** How is Chiron integrated into the chart?
** Expression of the Libra-Ascendant and Leo-MC.

List members can, and perhaps should, approach this in a segmented fashion so that each pattern can be related to specific characteristics of the man, his personality, his actions.
Dave
 

MareSaturni

I'll definitely give this ago when I get home!
However, I must say my analysis will probably lack some details and depth because I still in the initial stages of study, as you all know... is that ok?

I also would like to add that a Brazilian astrologer wrote a book analyzing Hitler's natal chart and transits from important moments of his life. It's interesting. However, as I stated in that other thread, I really think she used hindsight to put all under the most negative prism possible, which is something I feel uncomfortable with. A person can develop his worst traits but it doesn't mean that every potential in the map is negative.

The historical background she gives in the book is VERY good though. I may post some translated quotes if it adds to the discussions. Just from the historical part, not the chart analysis.

The challenge is a bit scary, lol! :laugh:
 

214red

great excercise, we did the hitler birth chart in class and was facinating!
 

ihcoyc

When I set this up locally, the main features I notice are Saturn, in the tenth house of career and political leadership, being squared by retrograde Venus conjunct Mars out of the seventh. Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant. Saturn is a co-ruler by dignity at the rising degree there.

His Mercury, combust (when is Mercury not combust?) has just set and entered the sixth house, indicating among other things evil fancies and mental problems.

Moon conjunct Jupiter trines the setting sun. However, the moon is on M22 / Facies, the face of (sidereal) Sagittarius, one of the most baleful stars (actually a star cluster) in the sky. Probably next worst after Algol. "Blindness, violent death ..... leadership, war, coldness, detachment, perfectionism; earthquakes; pure combative energies; risk-taking, glamour" are some of its traditional meanings, and Hitler's emotional life is shaped by this star. This emotional state is being pushed in the direction of the descending degree, thus onto other people.

Hitler's Part of Fortune, in the ninth house, is in opposition to his Moon and Jupiter as well. Hitler fancied himself a scholar and an intellectual, a person who understood about nations and peoples. But his reactions were emotionally colored and chauvinistic, being colored by his Capricorn Moon in the third house.
 

Cor serpentis

Moon conjuct Jupiter in Capricorn...well, Moon in his detriment, Jupiter in his fall. Both planets are in conjuction with Facies, the most agressive nebula (SO/MA nature).
When I set this up locally, the main features I notice are Saturn, in the tenth house of career and political leadership, being squared by retrograde Venus conjunct Mars out of the seventh. Venus is the ruler of the Ascendant. Saturn is a co-ruler by dignity at the rising degree there.

His Mercury, combust (when is Mercury not combust?) has just set and entered the sixth house, indicating among other things evil fancies and mental problems.

Moon conjunct Jupiter trines the setting sun. However, the moon is on M22 / Facies, the face of (sidereal) Sagittarius, one of the most baleful stars (actually a star cluster) in the sky. Probably next worst after Algol. "Blindness, violent death ..... leadership, war, coldness, detachment, perfectionism; earthquakes; pure combative energies; risk-taking, glamour" are some of its traditional meanings, and Hitler's emotional life is shaped by this star. This emotional state is being pushed in the direction of the descending degree, thus onto other people.

Hitler's Part of Fortune, in the ninth house, is in opposition to his Moon and Jupiter as well. Hitler fancied himself a scholar and an intellectual, a person who understood about nations and peoples. But his reactions were emotionally colored and chauvinistic, being colored by his Capricorn Moon in the third house.


Edit: Didn't see previous post :( I've read really awesome analysis of his chart, but in my language...
His Mercury isn't combust. Both planets (Sun and other :) )have to be in same sign. If planets are in different signs - we have no combustion. Hitler's Mercury is in orb for combustion, but Sun is in Taurus, Mercury in Aries.

Saturn has accidental dignity in house X, but Saturn is in his detriment, so he couldn't bring much good in that position....

(off topic - My Ascedant is in conjuction with Facies lol)
 

dadsnook2000

For Cor serpentis

Since part of the mission of this thread is to learn and practice reading charts and understanding how the chart relates to the life of the person, I offer the following comment in the most kindly meant manner.

You offered, "Moon conjuct Jupiter in Capricorn...well, Moon in his detriment, Jupiter in his fall. Both planets are in conjuction with Facies, the most agressive nebula (SO/MA nature)."

** This doesn't actually say anything (such as what we would say to a friend or client) what those astrological factors mean.

You noted, "His Mercury isn't combust. Both planets (Sun and other )have to be in same sign. If planets are in different signs - we have no combustion. Hitler's Mercury is in orb for combustion, but Sun is in Taurus, Mercury in Aries."

** This also lacks useful insight.

And, "Saturn has accidental dignity in house X, but Saturn is in his detriment, so he couldn't bring much good in that position...."

It is so useful to use a few keywords, if you wish to keep it basic, and then fit them to the life of a politician and pro-military man. This is how we gain self-confidence and learn our craft. Both Minderwiz and I, as well as every other astrologer, have made specific statements and have been shown to be wrong entirely or misdirected the given meaning to the context of the person's situation. Please try again. I'm sure you'll benefit, and those of us who believe we have a handle on this will better understand how to help learning students. Dave.
 

dadsnook2000

Neptune-Pluto approaching conjunction in Hitler's chart

Neptune-Pluto in Hitler's 8th house in early Gemini is an unusual chart pattern (thank heavens) which I will attempt to address. Since I am a "modern" astrologer and use the outer planets, this chart pattern falls to me to address. Others may choose to enter their views.

BACKGROUND
Neptune-Pluto cycles last about 500 years and coincide with important shifts in western (Greek origin) culture. This conjunction (allowing a 15 degree orb for mundane usage) occurred around 500-565 BC, 85-82 BC, 410-413 AD, 904-906, 1397-1400, and 1880-1905.

These periods, in broad terms, resulted in turmoil and severe transformations that seemed to cleanse some aspects of cultural thought and bring in newer visions to be experienced. We might choose to see this simplistic observation as representing wars and other collapses of cultural stability due to strange visions and ideologies (a negative interpretation) followed by a total rebuilding and adoption of new visions and institutions to serve those consensus ideals (a positive interpretation).

HITLER's CHART
Neptune is 4 degrees from conjoining Pluto, and is located in Hitler's 8th house. This chart is placed in the year of 1885 ---- we should keep this in mind. By the turn of the century, Neptune was alread 10 or more degrees ahead of Pluto and separating. Major aspects to this pair seem to be few and far between (except to the MC angle). However, this pair (with a midpoint of 2 Gemini) is semi-square (45 degrees) to Saturn in the 10th and sesqiquadrate (135 degrees) Uranus in the 12th. Neptune is semi-sextile (30 degrees) to the Sun near the Descendant angle. Let us look at each of these patterns.

** Neptune-Pluto, Gemini and 8th house: Hitler has a sense of fundamental social change that is occurring in Europe as he grows and develops. As a young student, this was expressed in terms of bizzar and striking artwork that could be seen as disturbing and visionary. As he became more socially aware, he saw Germany's political changes, maneuvering of political players and their disruptive impact on Germany's relations with its neighbors, the putting in place of restrictions upon the country in terms of its ambitions and armaments to support those ambitions, and the disruptive internal politics and government upheavals.

Hitler participated in some of that disbruptive internal maneuvering and came out on the short end of the stick, being imprisoned for his views and actions. Rebellion to gain control, helping to disrupt the political structure of his country, following someone's elses vision which he felt he shared. While in jail he formulated his own vision and wrote a book about it.

As Germany moved through the early 1930's Neptune formed an opening semi-square to Pluto (from Cancer, 9th house to Virgo, 10th house). This opening phase (of eight phases) denotes a time of struggle to be free of the past, to form a new identity. Hitler's 8th house fits with my interpretation of the 8th being a house of unequal sharing. Rather than experiencing his 8th house planets as if he was manipulated by society, he chose to to be the manipulator of others. It will be necessary for someone to evaluate other patterns in his chart that support this statement!

Identifying with the changing Pluto-Neptune cycle, in the 9th & 10th houses, Hitler sought to impose (Pluto) his vision (Neptune) by rearranging his country's understanding of how to deal with "others" (9th house) (countries and internal ethnic groups) to accomplish (10th house) his vision through deceit and propaganda and outlandish misrepresentations (Neptune). Most of the decade prior to World War II resulted in reshaping politics, cultural expectations, using ethnic groups to depress while building up the primary German population by contrast, all to whip up excitement and support for his control of the country.

** Saturn in Leo, in the 10th. For mundane astrology, Saturn in Leo seems not to be a great place. On an individual level, Saturn in Leo suggests one who hesitates to express feelings, but seeks to control emotions. Nature is one outlet that helps self-expression (Hitler often went to his Austrian mountains to get away from pressures). One wants to be the center of attention, especially in controlled or staged situations. On a larger scale we can look back and take note of the alteration between public performances and speeches contrasted to private doubts, rants and excessive tensions and re-planning. He crafted public bigger-then-life events to reflect his sought-after importance.

** Uranus in Libra, on a personal level, focuses upon innovation in relationships, changes in relationships. On a national level this can be related to constant changes in his staff, in his policies, in his war plans, in his trust of others. Much of this was hidden from the public and his country's enemies, but that was not a total success. Uranus in the 12th house points to a focus on psychology, mystical and spiritual topics. Hitler used these factors as part of his total tool box of warring against others ---- personal, political, military, national population.

IN SUMMARY
Concerning just this Pluto-Neptune pattern, we can see how the above mentioned views seem to fit with what we casually know and/or remember about this man, this period in history. All of this will be subject to astrological adjustment as other chart patterns are explored, and subject to historical question by those who do any historical review on Wikipedia or other sources. Corrections or contradiction should be noted. Do not take my views as being the correct or only views.

I hope this gets our discussions underway. Dave