a dabble at horary interpretation - question about courses

Hi folks...
OK, so I've been thinking about possibly doing a horary course now that I have the brain-space to consider it. I have been looking a lot at Sue Ward's intro course, but I thought it would be fun to use horary to see if it would be of any use to me! (see attached). I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this so please correct me where I (inevitably) go horribly wrong! Please forgive the 'bimbliness' of this reading and approach

The Ascendent is in the beginning of Capricorn, less than 3 degrees so that would suggest that the situation isn't developed enough really to go into a full analysis of the chart..
Which is a very valid interpretation as I am only dabbling and pondering the idea of using Sues course, I've not really got a concrete thought on it, plus I swing a lot when considering what avenue to study next so its fairly just that the chart says that.

However, just playing with the rest of the chart, ruling planet of the Asc is Saturn, in the 9th house corresponding to education and learning - so at least something is 'right'. And the ruling planet for the 9th house is Venus in Pisces, which sits in the 2nd - forming a trine with Saturn. Now this could correlate in that by starting the course I'd first have to BUY the course (therefore possess it). Perhaps also that there is a difference in buying the course and having access to the information and actually learning from it. The trine indicates thought that this is a harmonious relationship that the information once bought will be worked with.

Planets in the first house are (if we ignore pluto) Mercury and and the Sun. The Sun in the first house suggests that there will be a quick resolution to this question.
However, Mercury squares Moon, highlighting a difficulty providing enough focused attention to really learn from the course at the moment (possibly linked with the Asc no?) and the Sun squares Saturn (the ruling planet) reflecting my own feeling of being too stupid to really grasp at the complexity and real beauty of astrology (I really do just bimble and feel awkward) so there are complications in this chart for learning to happen.
Also, the opposition of Saturn and Jupiter looks a bit 'bothersome' in that perhaps the early learning will be good (as it goes over old ground) but it will be difficult to reach higher learning and application other than what I already possess.

So...
whilst the chart indicates that perhaps its too early to really have a concrete answer to my question, there are forces that suggest the course will both benefit me and not.
What the chart does suggest is that it is not the course itself that would affect my learning, but myself - putting my undivided attention into learning, as well as my own personal issues with feeling such just a dunce when it comes to astrology, especially all the nuances of horary astrology!
Yet the actual course itself seems well aspected and could be very fruitful, for the venus trine saturn suggests a course that is focused and well constructed with the art and beauty of astrology as well as the science.


Any other thoughts?
I hope I havent got myself into a right ridiculous pickle in my attempt at interpreting it!

A "modern" view of a Horary chart.

I'd like to offer a few comments on your chart commentary. Realize that I am NOT coming from the perspective of a traditional horary astrologer.

FIRST, you ignore Pluto in the 1st -- you are being overly influenced by Minderwiz. Pluto is out there, it does have an astrological influence. Pluto indicates persistence, intensity, transformation --- all of this in the first house of "self" and attitude. I could see this as a counterbalance to your feeling of being overwhelmed by astrology. It is time to destroy this self image. You can do it. Period.

SECOND, Jupiter and Saturn are the "business of life" pair. Their opposition 3rd to 9th points to a need to balance the study of small stuff (rules, details) with the perspective of the big stuff (overall perspective and appreciation of the big picture of what you are embarking upon).

THIRD, Mercury-Pluto signifies an approach of changing your thinking and taking charge of your course of action.

FOURTH, Venus-Neptune in the 2nd house points to the out-flow of money, yest, but also the dream of enhancing your own self-respect and inner valuation, establishing a basis of accomplishment that will please you. You will be pleased with your commitment to the "business of life" pair (Jupiter-Saturn) and their challenge to balance self-esteem with outer recognition of becoming a capable astrologer.

FIFTH, the Moon represents basic needs. Here, in the 9th, it represents a need to expose yourself to understanding your world from a larger perspective. Consider its wide opposition to Uranus, the planet symbolizing individualism through uniqueness. You crave the recognition that this understanding of horary astrology will provide to you. This is not so much as public aclaim, but as knowing that you have proven yourself to yourself.

SIXTH, the Sun in the first house represents attitude, vitality, focus, decision making. The general square aspect to Jupiter-Saturn, a T-Square, signifies a "driver pattern" that you can employ IF you understand the seriousness of this self-commitment moment in time. The separation of the Sun and T-square pattern from Mercury-Pluto indicates that you will make a logical decision, you understand the bargain that you may make with yourself, and the "price" in low self-esteem if you go through with this course of study and then don't complete it so as to obtain a degree of proficiency.

This chart reflects your situation nicely. Notice that I didn't use signs or rulerships or other traditional tools. Yet, this reading is as effectively "you, now" as any other approach. Like always, the chart shows the situation. The person alone shows the decision or lack of decision. I'd encourage you to go for it, but then, I am an astrologer who will always encourage another to pursue my life-long passion. Dave

thank you dave for taking a look! I do appreciate your 'modern' method of looking at it and yes, Minderwiz and the traditional way of looking at things meant that I ignored the modern planets...
and I liked how you went through the houses and their planets to gain the info - as I often have no idea where to start with reading charts.

Although when you start talking T squares I have no idea what you mean LOL. I obviously have a lot to learn.

But I do agree with your judgements Dave - I do see astrology and getting a good grip on it as its important to a lot of other stuff I do, but it just always eludes me. Its like someone telling me to draw a picture - I want to create the image that is in my head, but my attempts fall short only too quickly and I give up and throw a tantrum (lol).

T-Squares

inanna_tarot, a "T-Square" occurs when one astrological planet (Sun) is square (90 degrees) to two planets which are in opposition (Jupiter opposite Saturn). The two planets in opposition create a "tension" that has to be balanced --- the balance can be provided by the "squaring" planet (Sun). Think of this as a see-saw balanced by the middle fulcrum point. The balancing function is not a "moderating" function but a dynamic challenge as defined by the t-square planet's (Sun) meaning --- decision making, will, attitude, etc.

In other words, you resolve the "business of life" (Jupiter opposite Saturn) through making decisions to act or not to act. Since Sun is in the first house, this is something personal for you to decide. This why T-Squares are often seen as "drivers" to action, personal focus, accomplishment, etc.

Now, the Sun is actually in a quite wide "square" to Jupiter-Saturn, some six degrees. Some like to keep "orbs" of aspect close, within a degree or two. Some of the older texts used 12 or 15 degrees for the Sun. As Minderwiz sometimes notes, whole sign squares were based only on the signs, not the degrees. The closeness or looseness of an "orb" of aspect is personal, indeed it changes depending upon the chart. Astrologers seem to know when to be tight or loose with aspects. Dave

inanna_tarot said:

Hi folks...
OK, so I've been thinking about possibly doing a horary course now that I have the brain-space to consider it. I have been looking a lot at Sue Ward's intro course, but I thought it would be fun to use horary to see if it would be of any use to me! (see attached). I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this so please correct me where I (inevitably) go horribly wrong! Please forgive the 'bimbliness' of this reading and approach

Click to expand...

Sue's course is one of the best - though Olivia Barclay's QHP course (now administered by Barbara Dunn) is a good contender I have had dealings with Sue and can confirm that she's got a razor sharp mind

It's good to have a go at a chart to see if you can benefit and indeed if you can afford it

inanna_tarot said:

The Ascendent is in the beginning of Capricorn, less than 3 degrees so that would suggest that the situation isn't developed enough really to go into a full analysis of the chart..
Which is a very valid interpretation as I am only dabbling and pondering the idea of using Sues course, I've not really got a concrete thought on it, plus I swing a lot when considering what avenue to study next so its fairly just that the chart says that.

Click to expand...

Yes it's too early to know, especially as Capricorn is a sign of short ascension. There are exceptions to this - if the querent is very young or the sign ascending describes the corporature of his/her body - so if you are particularly described by Capricorn then you may proceed. - so you could check out whether you have a Capricorn body type (note: not a modern Capricorn personality), if so then the chart is valid

inanna_tarot said:

However, just playing with the rest of the chart, ruling planet of the Asc is Saturn, in the 9th house corresponding to education and learning - so at least something is 'right'. And the ruling planet for the 9th house is Venus in Pisces, which sits in the 2nd - forming a trine with Saturn. Now this could correlate in that by starting the course I'd first have to BUY the course (therefore possess it). Perhaps also that there is a difference in buying the course and having access to the information and actually learning from it. The trine indicates thought that this is a harmonious relationship that the information once bought will be worked with.

Planets in the first house are (if we ignore pluto) Mercury and and the Sun. The Sun in the first house suggests that there will be a quick resolution to this question.
However, Mercury squares Moon, highlighting a difficulty providing enough focused attention to really learn from the course at the moment (possibly linked with the Asc no?) and the Sun squares Saturn (the ruling planet) reflecting my own feeling of being too stupid to really grasp at the complexity and real beauty of astrology (I really do just bimble and feel awkward) so there are complications in this chart for learning to happen.
Also, the opposition of Saturn and Jupiter looks a bit 'bothersome' in that perhaps the early learning will be good (as it goes over old ground) but it will be difficult to reach higher learning and application other than what I already possess.

Click to expand...

The key is to keep things as simple as possible. There are two key significators, Saturn which represents you and the ruler of the ninth which represents the course - Astrology is a ninth house matter as is higher education. The ninth is ruled by Venus, as you point out

Yes you are right, Saturn in the ninth shows your interest in Astrology and the course. Venus in the second shows that the course is connected to your finances. Saturn in Libra is in exaltation and also has a mutual reception with Mars - you are a strong candidate as well as an interested one (Saturn is ruled by Venus and so the course is again emphasised)

Venus is in exaltation, has a mutual reception with Jupiter (the greater benefic) and is in its own terms The course is in excellent condition so it's what you want but is it what you can afford?

Is there a connection between Saturn and Venus in the chart which might indicate a successful conclusion? Yes, Saturn is at the antiscion of Venus - the equivalent of a conjunction. So is the course the right one for you - yes - but And the but takes us back to that early degree rising. The chart is enticing but is it valid? Incidentally the Venus/Saturn trine is separating and also past the sign boundary. If it were an applying aspect, I'd be tempted to allow it

Now are the other placements important?

A planet only becomes important to the extent that it signifies something involved in the question So what do Sun and Mercury signify - Mercury rules the sixth through Gemini, but there's nothing in the question relating to health or servants. It rules Virgo intercepted in the ninth. Now we already have dealt with that, so it adds nothing more,

The Sun rules the eighth, so accidentally it's a malefic and to the extent it has any relevance, it represents a limit on you, from yourself It's an applying square to Saturn so you may have doubts that you are not up to it or will struggle with it. However it's a minor inconvenience - nothing important.

Does Pluto matter As Dave says it's out there (though so is the asteroid Frank Zappa) but not everything out there or in the chart is important in a horary question - which concentrates on a specific and precise area not your entire life or the entire outside world. Incidentally Sue will have kittens if you use Pluto in a horary reading.

Other planets, old or new, have no role in this reading because they do not signify anything of note. Only the Moon which acts a a co-significator for you and the course would be taken into account, if needed.

Thank you Dave for your explanation... I knew that somewhere in the back of my head

And thank you Minderwiz also for your blinding input! Just to pick out a few things you said.

Minderwiz said:

The key is to keep things as simple as possible. There are two key significators, Saturn which represents you and the ruler of the ninth which represents the course - Astrology is a ninth house matter as is higher education. The ninth is ruled by Venus, as you point out

Yes you are right, Saturn in the ninth shows your interest in Astrology and the course. Venus in the second shows that the course is connected to your finances. Saturn in Libra is in exaltation and also has a mutual reception with Mars - you are a strong candidate as well as an interested one (Saturn is ruled by Venus and so the course is again emphasised)

Venus is in exaltation, has a mutual reception with Jupiter (the greater benefic) and is in its own terms The course is in excellent condition so it's what you want but is it what you can afford?

Click to expand...

Bang on (dang I love this astrology stuff!) I did think about this (the money issue) when first interpreting the chart, but thought perhaps I was projecting my thoughts into it and seeing what I knew to be true, rather than reading the chart right.. awesome stuff! (although of course I didnt know all that fancy stuff to get me there, just a hunch, i'm a hunch astrologer LOL)

Now are the other placements important?

A planet only becomes important to the extent that it signifies something involved in the question So what do Sun and Mercury signify - Mercury rules the sixth through Gemini, but there's nothing in the question relating to health or servants. It rules Virgo intercepted in the ninth. Now we already have dealt with that, so it adds nothing more,

The Sun rules the eighth, so accidentally it's a malefic and to the extent it has any relevance, it represents a limit on you, from yourself It's an applying square to Saturn so you may have doubts that you are not up to it or will struggle with it. However it's a minor inconvenience - nothing important.

Click to expand...

thank you for your thoughts on those points - great to see the reasons why things are excluded as well as included

Incidentally Sue will have kittens if you use Pluto in a horary reading.

Other planets, old or new, have no role in this reading because they do not signify anything of note. Only the Moon which acts a a co-significator for you and the course would be taken into account, if needed.

Click to expand...

Well, astrolabe just throws everything in for you, hence pluto being there LOL. But its fun to consider it and play with it


And I find it really interesting how both modern and traditional techniques bring out different thoughts, yet very valid ones. Gives me goosebumps in a really good way, which is why for years I've struggled to master the basics, but it'll come in time.
Thank you so much Minderwiz and dadsnook2000! Been very revealing and educational

Some further comments on Horary Astrology

inanna_tarot said:

Well, astrolabe just throws everything in for you, hence pluto being there LOL. But its fun to consider it and play with it


And I find it really interesting how both modern and traditional techniques bring out different thoughts,

Click to expand...

Horary uses a 'normal' horoscopic chart, so whatever way to generate a chart you use, you end up with a full chart. If you use your own software you might be able to have greater control over what is displayed but you will always be faced with the decision about which part or parts of the chart to concentrate on.

Modern Astrology teaches that the whole chart describes the person, event or thing that it relates to and in a sense this is true of Horary BUT not everything is equally relevant or important. This holds in all forms of Astrology, for example Dave concentrates on angular planets in Solar Returns and stress that these cannot be read in the same way as natal charts. Horary charts too cannot be read in the same way as natsl - they relate to questions about specific issues and what matters most is giving a clear and direct answer that meets the querents concerns. John Frawley makes the point that you tell the client the answer to their question and not to offer unnecessary extraneous in formation. In many ways this presents the key challenge of Horary - dividing the wheat from the chaff in terms of the question.

You should also bear in mind that the answer to the question may itself stimulate one or more supplementary questions and these may require a further use of the chart but again in a directed way. For example you might want to ask 'Will I get on with Sue at a personal level, if i take up the course?' Or 'Can I really afford to do the course?' This will involve using other planets as significators, one for Sue and one for your income and resources. So more of the chart will come into play. However, that comes from the querent's needs not the Astrologer's interests (unless they are both the same person)

This raises the question of the use of modern planets and even asteroids as significators. Virtually all Horary Astrologers of not do not use them and you would not use them on Sue's course but I can see their limited use in Horary. I would not use them as sign (and therefore house) rulers but I can se their use if you have to fall back on planets within a house because the house ruler is being used to signify something else.

For example, in the question 'Can I afford the course?', your second house of income and resources is ruled by Saturn, as it has Aquarius on the cusp. But Saturn is in use to signify you and we need a different planet to signify your income. The choice should now devolve onto a planet in the house and not already in use as a significator. There are three planets in the second, Neptune, Venus and Uranus. Venus is in use as the significator of the course but that leaves us Uranus and Neptune. Neptune is in Aquarius, Uranus is in Aries, so Neptune would be the better choice. The problem comes when we try to assess how good your income is in terms of the question. Neptune has no recognised essential dignities, so we can only go on its accidental dignity and even the we have to exclude its house placement as that is the reason its being considered. We would have a problem answering the question using Neptune or Uranus because we can't form a precise judgement on the condition of your income.

For similar reasons using the outers as sign rulers presents us with the problem of evaluating their strength or weakness. There the further issue that if we change signrulership to affinity, then all signs are up for grabs - we could use Ceres for Taurus, or Chiron for Sagittarius or Vesta for Cancer. Is that a problem? - well it means we can alter the rulers till we get an answer the client is happy with - but then should we be trying to make them happy or should we honestly be trying to answer the question they asked, even if that is not what they want to hear (though in diplomatic and kindly terms)

Some further comments on Horary Astrology

inanna_tarot said:

Well, astrolabe just throws everything in for you, hence pluto being there LOL. But its fun to consider it and play with it


And I find it really interesting how both modern and traditional techniques bring out different thoughts,

Click to expand...

Horary uses a 'normal' horoscopic chart, so whatever way to generate a chart you use, you end up with a full chart. If you use your own software you might be able to have greater control over what is displayed but you will always be faced with the decision about which part or parts of the chart to concentrate on.

Modern Astrology teaches that the whole chart describes the person, event or thing that it relates to and in a sense this is true of Horary BUT not everything is equally relevant or important. This holds in all forms of Astrology, for example Dave concentrates on angular planets in Solar Returns and stress that these cannot be read in the same way as natal charts. Horary charts too cannot be read in the same way as natsl - they relate to questions about specific issues and what matters most is giving a clear and direct answer that meets the querents concerns. John Frawley makes the point that you tell the client the answer to their question and not to offer unnecessary extraneous in formation. In many ways this presents the key challenge of Horary - dividing the wheat from the chaff in terms of the question.

You should also bear in mind that the answer to the question may itself stimulate one or more supplementary questions and these may require a further use of the chart but again in a directed way. For example you might want to ask 'Will I get on with Sue at a personal level, if i take up the course?' Or 'Can I really afford to do the course?' This will involve using other planets as significators, one for Sue and one for your income and resources. So more of the chart will come into play. However, that comes from the querent's needs not the Astrologer's interests (unless they are both the same person)

This raises the question of the use of modern planets and even asteroids as significators. Virtually all Horary Astrologers of not do not use them and you would not use them on Sue's course but I can see their limited use in Horary. I would not use them as sign (and therefore house) rulers but I can se their use if you have to fall back on planets within a house because the house ruler is being used to signify something else.

For example, in the question 'Can I afford the course?', your second house of income and resources is ruled by Saturn, as it has Aquarius on the cusp. But Saturn is in use to signify you and we need a different planet to signify your income. The choice should now devolve onto a planet in the house and not already in use as a significator. There are three planets in the second, Neptune, Venus and Uranus. Venus is in use as the significator of the course but that leaves us Uranus and Neptune. Neptune is in Aquarius, Uranus is in Aries, so Neptune would be the better choice. The problem comes when we try to assess how good your income is in terms of the question. Neptune has no recognised essential dignities, so we can only go on its accidental dignity and even the we have to exclude its house placement as that is the reason its being considered. We would have a problem answering the question using Neptune or Uranus because we can't form a precise judgement on the condition of your income. We could, of course, conclude that your income is neptunian - variable and without firm foundation. However we still can't say to what extent your income exhibits neptunian tendencies As Neptune is about to move into Pisces, a sign with which it is said to have affinities, things may be going to improve

For similar reasons using the outers as sign rulers presents us with the problem of evaluating their strength or weakness. There the further issue that if we change signrulership to affinity, then all signs are up for grabs - we could use Ceres for Taurus, or Chiron for Sagittarius or Vesta for Cancer. Is that a problem? - well it means we can alter the rulers till we get an answer the client is happy with - but then should we be trying to make them happy or should we honestly be trying to answer the question they asked, even if that is not what they want to hear (though in diplomatic and kindly terms)

Edited to add:

I omitted to say what I would use if I ruled out Neptune as the significator of your money. I'd either take the exaltation ruler or a natural significator of wealth. There is no exaltation ruler in Aquarius, and the Triplicity ruler, Mercury is also Lord 6 and heading for combustion, even though it's angular So I would not choose it. Instead I'd have used Jupiter, a natural significator of income and wealth (Dave points out its role in the business cycle). I'll leave you to think what it might indicate about your income

PS, as you didn't the question on income I used the above as hypothetical examples and not as reasonable conclusions from this chart