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Thanks again. Finally would you see setting up home together as the necessary conclusion? Or would your happy with living apart but the relationship lasting a couple of years or more. That is quite a bit more than a 'fling but not a long term live-in relationship? That is how high do I set the bar of success?
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I'm not getting any younger so in all honesty I'd like something that would lead to setting up home together at some point. it wouldn't have to be within the 6 month time period but further down the road in a year or two.
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Reading for Nytebugg Part 1


I'm going to use the next posts to show how a reading will be carried out. Most tools and techniques will be on display. So if you intend to have a go at your own you can use this as something of a template.

The Question

Will I have have a meaningful romantic relationship in the next 6 months? By meaningful I mean something that isn't a casual fling but it doesn't have to be marriage either. A mutually interested type romantic relationship.

The question was clarified to show that there is no person directly concerned, though a possible friend might be involved and the six months is to establish a relationship but not necessarily to include setting up home together.


The Chart

The chart was cast for 9:14 am, Saturday 21 January and for my home location of Standish, Lancashire, UK. This was the time and place when I read Nytebugg's post above and confirmed my understanding of the question. Note that I could not have used Nytebugg's own location because Aeclectic does not give accurate times after the first hour.

The chart has 25 degrees Aquarius rising, So Saturn rules the Ascendant and signifies Nytebugg.

The question relates to a romantic relationship and here two possible houses might be relevant. The first is the fifth House, which is often referred to as ruling romance. The other is the Seventh house of partnerships and relationships. There are arguments for both - but I tend to agree with John Frawley, that questions such as this are primarily concerned with a relationship to another person and are therefore seventh house - the idea of Roimance and Romance as a generalised pursuit is fifth house.

The Descendant is in Leo, so the Sun rules the Seventh cusp. This makes the significators of the possible ‘partner’ the Sun. The next steps are to examine each of the significators in turn, see what their strengths and weaknesses are and what their interests are. Most importantly we need to see if there’s any connection between the two of them and how strong those connections are.

Assessing the querent’s significators

Saturn is positioned in the Seventh House, which is a good start. Remember here Saturn is a significators in the question so it’s position in the seventh is not a consideration before judgement. Indeed it shows that Nytebugg’s interest in a relationship is genuine. Saturn is not in the Sun’s sign of Leo, it’s actually in the last degree of Libra not far from the eighth house cusp. So how do we go about describing Nytebugg and her situation. To do this we make use of two concepts, essential dignity and [accidental dignity[/i] The former says something about the querent and her inherent strengths and weaknesses in terms of the question. The latter gives us some indication of the situation she finds herself in, in relation to the question.

Essential dignity

Essential dignity comes from the significator’s sign placement, no matter which house it is. Saturn is in Libra, so what does that tell us? We look at the essential dignities in Libra, to find out about Saturn’s strengths or weaknesses. There are five of these. Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity, Terms and Face (decan) in descending order of strength. As a rule of thumb for quick assessment, we score 5 for rulership, 4 for exaltation, 3 for Triplicity, 2 for terms and 1 for face. These are rough and ready guidelines but they are in widespread use, so software such as Morinus will give them to you. For a quick look at what each planet’s essential dignities are (assuming the chart is loaded) we can go to ‘Tables’ select ‘Almutens’ and then select ‘points’, or press F2

You will find Saturn as the first planet in the list and looking along the row, you will see that the first column is Saturn itself and it has ‘4+3’ in it. This tells us that Saturn is both the exaltation ruler and the Triplicity ruler of Libra. Looking further along we will see that Venus scores 5 (it’s the ruler of Libra), Mars scores 2 (Saturn is in the Terms of Mars) and Jupiter scores 1 (Saturn is in the Face of Jupiter). These latter two are also shown on the chart wheel if you look for Libra and Saturn's place at the end of the sign.

So Saturn scores highly in Libra. It has a total of 7 points, which shows that Nytebugg has considerable power in relation to the question – if she gets the opportunity (see accidental dignities below). Power here could come from looks, from personality, etc but she’s certainly not a weak candidate for a relationship at all. Frawley also uses the dignities to give some impression of what the querent is interested in. In this case Venus gives the major concern, followed by Saturn, and then possibly Mars and Jupiter. Venus is both a natural symbol of romance, and in tis chart has some involvement in the seventh (where Venus is interecepted) and in the Second which has Taurus on the cusp. So we have some link to the seventh but also possibly there might be some feelings about her own resources. Saturn is her own significators, so there’s some self interest here – not in a negative way but a concern for her own future. Saturn is at the end of Libra, so it’s condition is due to change – the future offers some challenge and possibly some concern.

Accidental dignity

Saturn’s accidental dignity comes from its position in the chart, relative to the Sun and from aspects it receives. A full list of the accidental dignities can be found here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Saturn is in the seventh but as it’s a couple of signs from the Descendant, I would not really treat it as fully angular. Saturn is also Direct in motion – which is an accidental dignity, which Lilly scored at 4. So far Saturn also looks to be in a good situation, indicating that Nytebugg may well find herself in a situation where she can easily influence the outcome.

Saturn’s speed can be obtained from Morinus using the F11 key, or’ Tables, Speeds’. This shows that Saturn’s speed is just under 2 minutes per day, which is slow for Saturn – so quick action might not be possible, if required. This is the first debility we’ve met. However the rest is quite good. Saturn is Oriental – meaning that it is between the conjunction with the Sun and it’s opposition to the Sun. Lilly scores this as an accidental dignity. We can see this from the chart as the Sun has only just entered Aquarius, and is only just over 3 signs ahead of Saturn. Remember here that the Sun moves faster than Saturn so the Sun being ahead of Saturn indicates that the Sun is moving away from it. The distance of 3+ signs also means that Saturn is not too close to the Sun, so it also gains dignity by being free from Combustion and the Sun’s beams. Saturn too near to the Sun cannot be seen, and within a horary, I take that to mean that the the thing signified is out of sight or won’t be noticed. So being free from the beams/combustion means that a prospective suitor should easily see Nytebugg, she isn’t going to be overlooked!!

Lastly we look for any aspects to Saturn from either malefic or benefics Here we are looking for close applying aspects. In Horary applying aspects indicate things that are in the future, separating aspects things in the past. We also keep as far as possible to aspects that are in sign. So the separating opposition to Jupiter is not counted both because it is separating but also because it’s out of sign. The same holds for the separating square to the Sun, also out of sign. We will return to this aspect later.

So Nytebugg is strong both within herself (personality, looks, inherent nature) and also in a strong position to influence the outcome. However there are some possible concerns that things may change for the worse, and that in part underlies the question In the next post I’ll look at the possible suitor and what connection, if any there is between the two significators
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Reading for Nytebugg - Part 2


We have assessed the strength of Saturn and used it to draw some conclusions about Nytebugg in relation to the question. Now it's the turn of the Sun, which signifies the possible suitor/boy friend.

Essential dignity

The Sun is placed in Aquarius in the first degree, and in the twelfth House. In Aquarius the Sun is in it's detriment (the sign opposite it's own sign of rulership). This is an essential debility - an indicator of weakness (and possible lack of suitability). Checking the table on Morinus (press F2) we can see that the Sun is not only in the rulership of Saturn but also in Saturn's triplicity, and Saturn's terms. We can also see that the Sun is in none of it's own dignities - it is Peregrine (an essential debility). This person could well and truly be smitten with Nytebugg but at best they will appear rather vulnerable, at worst they may not appear suitable at all - they are certainly not at their best!

Accidental dignity

The Sun is in the twelfth House, not a good place to be. In the twelfth House is cadent to the Ascendant and inconjunct the Ascendant. Being inconjunct means that planets in the house cannot be 'seen' and one of the meanings of the twelfth is hidden or secret or behind the scenes. So whilst Nytebugg is very visible, the potential boyfriend is not.

The Sun, like the Moon can never be retrograde, and being the Sun it can have no phase relationship with itself - it cannot be oriental or occidental, or under it's own beams So we don't have to look at those. Similarly whilst the Sun does have some variation in speed, that is rarely used in Horary. So we are left with any aspects from malefics or benefics. As we have noted the square to Saturn is separating and now out of sign. The Sun is applying to a square with Jupiter, but Lilly requires a trine or sextile for Jupiter to be of help.

So the Sun seems to indicate someone who appears vulnerable or even unsuitable, assuming that they are noticed at all and that is not particularly likely here. But they would have positive feelings if they encountered her..

Will anything come of the matter?

In questions about relationships this becomes a little complicated as Lilly allows two further significators to be used - the Sun for him and Venus for her - but only if these secondary significators are not already in play In this case the Sun is already in play for him, so that's not a possibility. Venus is not currently being used, so it could be used as a secondary significator for her,

Also the Moon can be used as a co-significator of the querent or even the quesited in all horaries.

What we would be looking for is an aspect or other clear connection between significators that indicates things will move from a potential match to a real match. so let's look at the possibilities:

Firstly Sun and Saturn are not forming an aspect - rather the reverse, they are in a separating aspect. There is another possible connection - through antisicion (plural antisica) This is where the two significators lie on opposite sides of the solstice line (0 Cancer to 0 Capricorn) but are an equal distance from it. This is treated as similar to a conjunction. The point directly opposite the degree of an antiscion is called a contrascion and is treated as an opposition.

You can find the antisica of the planets in Morinus by using 'Tables' and clicking on Antiscia or pressing f7. The antiscion of of Saturn is 0 degrees 45 minutes Pisces and this is nowhere near the Sun. Use the column marked Longitude in the table.

So no connection between Saturn and Sun.

Now we look at the Sun (him) and Venus (her). Venus lies at 8 degrees 39 minutes Pisces - there's no major aspect here. Neither is there an antiscion between the two. The Sun's antiscion lies at 29 degrees 16 minutes Scorpio, some distance on from Venus. So the sencond set of significators do not produce any real connection.

Finally let's look at the Moon. She is placed at 6 degrees Capricorn and she is applying to a sextile with Venus at 8 degrees 39 Pisces. So if we treat the Moon as a co-significator of the quesited, we have a connection forming. Neither Moon or Venus will aspect another planet before the sextile is perfected.

So we've looked at two different pairs of significatrs, Saturn/Sun. Sun/Venus and finally used the Moon. The first pairs do not produce a satisfactory outcome but the Moon/Venus pair will.

Conclusion

There's a real chance that Nytebugg's relationship will come about within the next six months, possibly with someone unexpected - either because they are out of sight now or because even in full view, she hasn't considered them as a possible suitable person.

As the horary really does show, this is not going to be quite as straightforward as hoped but the chance is there and she has the ability to take it, given the chance. So no guarantees but I think the opportunity will arise, keeping an open mind may well help to prevent the other person being ignored but there's a real chance that whilst she sees the opportunity she might decide the person is not suitable or the sort of person she's looking for.
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Summaryv-vBasic steps


1 Agree the question

2 Cast the chart

3 Identify the signifcators of Querent and Quesited

4 Assess the condition of each in terms of Essential and Accidental dignities

5 Try to apply these to querent and quesited in terms of the situation

6 Look to see if there is an applying aspect between them

7 If no applying aspect check for antisica

8 If no antisica check the Moon and it's past and future aspects

9 Form your judgement of the outcome

In most question you will be looking for an aspect or other contact between significators but there may be times in a Yes or No question when simply the strength of the significators might be enough - for example a strong mutual reception by rulership or exaltation.

The two significators in an applying trine, conjunction or sextile may not be enough to secure the outcome, especially if both significators are weak or one or both is also afflicted by a malefic. In Nytebugg's question both her possible significators are strong - Saturn and Venus are both in their exaltations and both are in good houses, especially Venus. The Sun is weak though, and whilst it has an aspect to a benefic, it is only by square The outcome is also dependent on the Moon's actions The Moon in turn is peregrine but it is fast, it is in a good house (the eleventh), and it has just trined the benefic Jupiter. A final good point for it is that it is ruled by Saturn, te significator of Nytebugg.

Nows I'll take another question but those of you who would like to have a go for yourselves are welcome to try your hand I will use this thread to answer any questions on methods, as well as dealing with those who just wish to have their question answered wthout having to try for themselves or have done a chart and identified their significators but can't get any further
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Minderwiz, thank you for the detailed reading and walk through of it. It is great to hear that I am so strongly placed and you are correct in my desire being sincere. There is some concern for the future but it does help to know that I will not be over looked. I do like hearing that there may be an opportunity even if I decide not to take it.
This may have given me some thoughts on what it is I really want and need from a boyfriend at this stage of my life.
This is one of those thing that I will keep in mind and come back in several months time and try to remember to post a further update.
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I started reading through this and I have a few things I'm confused about... The essential dignity chart in Morimus. I can't figure out how your read it. So the two columns do you read it where two of the same planets intersect on both axises? What are all the other planets then? So if you want to find out an essential dignity of a planet, how do you figure it out on the chart since there are to axises where you can correspond two different planet? I hope this makes sense.

Also is there somewhere I could look up some of these terms? I think I remember seeing a link on this board, but I cant find it any more. Also to figure out which sign a house is in when it's not exactly on that house, do you take the sign that comes first, no matter how much of it falls in the actual house? Is that correct

I'm also confused about having co-significators. So when that happens, how do you synthesize the information you get. So as long as one of them has a connection with the planet the represents the question, then it's a good sign? What does it then mean that 2 of the other planets that represent the quarent don't have any connection with the planet that represents the question?

I know lots of questions...but I'm trying to process all the information...Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBreeze
I started reading through this and I have a few things I'm confused about... The essential dignity chart in Morimus. I can't figure out how your read it. So the two columns do you read it where two of the same planets intersect on both axises? What are all the other planets then? So if you want to find out an essential dignity of a planet, how do you figure it out on the chart since there are to axises where you can correspond two different planet? I hope this makes sense.
The table produced by Morinus is quite large and not presented in the best possible way for the purposes of horary. Both Solar Fire and Janus are much better in this respect but both cost serious money.

I've attached a copy of a section of the Morinus table for Nytebugg's horary and I'll use that for the explanation. The top row and the first column are used for the look ups. They contain the planets in order. Consider the row of planetary symbols at the top the 'header' row, and header column, rather like an Excel spreadsheet'

The first eight non header rows of the full table are the planets, Saturn to Moon and the Point of Fortune. The order is the traditional one of starting with the planet furthest from the Sun and working inwards. Note that Venus Mercury and Moon lie between the Earth and the Sun and therefore the Sun does not come at the end of the list.

To read the table look up the planet that you want to consider in the header column - that is the first column on the left with just the planet symbols. Let's take Venus as an example. Venus is the fifth planet down in this column. The row with Venus at the left gives you the information about Venus. In the first non header column you get it's position in the chart, in this case 8 degrees 39 minutes 25 seconds of Pisces. The second non header column has Saturn in the header row. This column will tell you if Venus is in any of the dignities of Saturn. It's got a '1' in it. This means that Venus is in the lowest dignity of Saturn - the Face or Decan of Saturn. The next column along is headed by Jupiter and has a '5' in it. This tells you that Venus is in the highest dignity of Jupiter - Jupiter is the sign ruler of Pisces. The columns headed Mars and Sun are both blank, so Venus is not in any dignity of Mars or the Sun. The column headed Vanus tells you whether Venus is in any of her own dignities. In this case we have' 4+3+2'. This tells you that Venus is in three of her own dignities. The '4' is exaltation (Venus is exalted in Pisces). The '3' tells you that Venus is in her won Triplicity (Venus rules the Water Triplicity by Day) and the '2' tells you that Venus is in her own Terms. The terms are 5 uneven divisions of a sign but if you want to know the start and finish of Venus' Terms in Pisces you can look at the chart posted for Nytebugg;s horary, where the Terms are the ring just below the degree markers.

What we are looking for is really the cell where the planet's row and column intersect. In the case of Venus the cell containing '4+3+2'. This cell tells you that Venus has essential dignity in the chart - it's in one or more of it's own dignities (in this case 3 of it's own dignities).

By contrast if you look at the row above (for the Sun) and move across to the column headed by the Sun, you will see no score at all in this cell. The Sun is not in any of it's own dignities - so it is Peregrine, a debility which scores -5

As well a planet can be in debility by Detriment (also -5) or Fall (-4). These are a position in the sign opposite its own rulership or exaltation, respectively. Sadly Morinus doesn't give these directly so you need to know not only the signs of rulership and exaltation but also to do a quick check for Detriment or Fall. Again Solar Fire and Janus provide this information directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Breeze
Also is there somewhere I could look up some of these terms? I think I remember seeing a link on this board, but I cant find it any more.
Yes I remember writing about it but can't give you an immediate link. Given that it's quite important to horary I'll put in a separate post on it later today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBreeze
Also to figure out which sign a house is in when it's not exactly on that house, do you take the sign that comes first, no matter how much of it falls in the actual house? Is that correct?
You take the sign which contains the House Cusp. So if the House cusp is 29 degrees Pisces, Jupiter rules the House even though the majority of the House may be in Aries or even extend into Taurus. Now one of the considerations for judgement is to avoid charts with very early or late degrees rising for the Ascendant, but even if we do that, there's always a chance of late degrees on other House cusps, including the Tenth (MC) and fourth (IC). The only way to avoid this is to both avoid early or late degrees for the Ascendant and use whole sign houses. In practice whilst this can occur it's not really a major problem, as long as you are consistent in your use of houses - that is keep to one house system for your horaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBreeze
I'm also confused about having co-significators. So when that happens, how do you synthesize the information you get. So as long as one of them has a connection with the planet the represents the question, then it's a good sign? What does it then mean that 2 of the other planets that represent the quarent don't have any connection with the planet that represents the question?
Nyteebugg asked a common question about romance and relationships, one which you will get a lot as a horary Astrologer. This is also the type of question that causes the most confusion with new readers, because it allows for more than one set of significators, according to Lilly.

My method is to go in order as follows:

1. Evaluate the significators for the Querent and Quesited using the Ascendant ruler and the relevant house ruler. And check to see if there is any connection that will lead to the matter concerned being perfected - that is the question receives a 'Yes' answer Remember here to check for Antiscia and or mutual receptions. Also we will later come across other ways of establishing connection as we go on. If it is not a relationship question then go to #3

2. If and only if it is a relationship question and there is no 'Yes' from #1 look at Sun and Venus Again check for condition and connection. You can in this case use Sun or Venus with the original significators at this stage providing you are pairing one 'his' significator with one 'hers' significator. In the Nytebugg horary there is a connection by antiscion between Saturn and Venus but as these are both significators for Nytebugg they say nothing about the quesited and hence the matter being perfected.

3. If there is still no connection or it is not a relationship question check the Moon for a chance of perfection. The Moon too should be evaluated, in Nytebugg's question it's peregrine and in it's own detriment. So whilst the chance is created there's no certainty Nytebugg will see it or will want to take it if she does see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silent Breeze
I know lots of questions...but I'm trying to process all the information...Thanks
There is a lot of information for the beginner. The key issue I face is whether to provide the information before looking at a horary, or do some examples with incomplete information . One carries the risk of just being boring and not really being understood. The other carries the risk of being not completely followed. However I much prefer to do a few horaries and use them for illustrating the learning process, rather than make up partial examples.

However I expect requests for clarification or more information, like this one and it allows me to put in some more information, knowing it happens to be relevant for the current stage of your learning. So keep them coming

Incidentally I did some posts on horary in the Traditional Approaches thread so here's the link

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...135390&page=13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
Yes I remember writing about it but can't give you an immediate link. Given that it's quite important to horary I'll put in a separate post on it later today.
I've started a sticky thread which looks at some of the terms used in Horary and also gives some background information and explanations.

Up to now it cover most of the terms that I used in the reading for Nytebugg but I'll add to it as and when necessary (such as further questions for assistance) I've not redefined the terms querent, quesited and significator as they are full explained at the beginning of this thread.

You will find the thread here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...68#post3017668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The table produced by Morinus is quite large and not presented in the best possible way for the purposes of horary. Both Solar Fire and Janus are much better in this respect but both cost serious money.

I've attached a copy of a section of the Morinus table for Nytebugg's horary and I'll use that for the explanation. The top row and the first column are used for the look ups. They contain the planets in order. Consider the row of planetary symbols at the top the 'header' row, and header column, rather like an Excel spreadsheet'

The first eight non header rows of the full table are the planets, Saturn to Moon and the Point of Fortune. The order is the traditional one of starting with the planet furthest from the Sun and working inwards. Note that Venus Mercury and Moon lie between the Earth and the Sun and therefore the Sun does not come at the end of the list.

To read the table look up the planet that you want to consider in the header column - that is the first column on the left with just the planet symbols. Let's take Venus as an example. Venus is the fifth planet down in this column. The row with Venus at the left gives you the information about Venus. In the first non header column you get it's position in the chart, in this case 8 degrees 39 minutes 25 seconds of Pisces. The second non header column has Saturn in the header row. This column will tell you if Venus is in any of the dignities of Saturn. It's got a '1' in it. This means that Venus is in the lowest dignity of Saturn - the Face or Decan of Saturn. The next column along is headed by Jupiter and has a '5' in it. This tells you that Venus is in the highest dignity of Jupiter - Jupiter is the sign ruler of Pisces. The columns headed Mars and Sun are both blank, so Venus is not in any dignity of Mars or the Sun. The column headed Vanus tells you whether Venus is in any of her own dignities. In this case we have' 4+3+2'. This tells you that Venus is in three of her own dignities. The '4' is exaltation (Venus is exalted in Pisces). The '3' tells you that Venus is in her won Triplicity (Venus rules the Water Triplicity by Day) and the '2' tells you that Venus is in her own Terms. The terms are 5 uneven divisions of a sign but if you want to know the start and finish of Venus' Terms in Pisces you can look at the chart posted for Nytebugg;s horary, where the Terms are the ring just below the degree markers.

What we are looking for is really the cell where the planet's row and column intersect. In the case of Venus the cell containing '4+3+2'. This cell tells you that Venus has essential dignity in the chart - it's in one or more of it's own dignities (in this case 3 of it's own dignities).

By contrast if you look at the row above (for the Sun) and move across to the column headed by the Sun, you will see no score at all in this cell. The Sun is not in any of it's own dignities - so it is Peregrine, a debility which scores -5

As well a planet can be in debility by Detriment (also -5) or Fall (-4). These are a position in the sign opposite its own rulership or exaltation, respectively. Sadly Morinus doesn't give these directly so you need to know not only the signs of rulership and exaltation but also to do a quick check for Detriment or Fall. Again Solar Fire and Janus provide this information directly.
Is there any case where you would need to check is a planet falls into a different planets essential dignity? Or is it mostly that you find where the same planet intersects?

Also if the house where the questied falls under also has a planet in it do you read for the planet or the sign that if falls under it, and the ruler of that sign?
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The Aeclectic Tarot Forum closed permanently on July 14th, 2017. The public threads remain online as a read-only archive and resource. More information on our decision can be found here. Thank you for being a part of our active community over the past seventeen years.

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