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Zezina 
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Carl Jung (1875-1961); Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)


I often wonder if Carl Jung and Aleister Crowley ever met, as they were both born in 1875.

Both had brilliant minds, and Crowley frequently visited Germany, where Jung lived.

Had Jung's theories of Personality been known to Crowley, and had Crowley applied those to the Court Cards as they have been today, Crowley's correspondences might just possibly have been very different.

I've always enjoyed the correspondences made by Jana Riley with the Jung-based MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) in her 1995 book 'Tarot dictionary and compendium'.

In this book, Riley lists under each court card, 14 Taroist's correspondences including her own: Arrien, Cowie, Crowley, Eakins, Fairfield, Greer, Noble, Pollack, Riley, Sharman-Burke, Stewart, Waite, Walker, Wanless.

I wonder if Crowley would have tried to fit the Golden Dawn astrological system with Tarot in quite the same way, had he had access to, and studied Jung's theories.

Does anyone here know if these two men ever met? I've searched for evidence that they did, but have failed to come up with any evidence.

*Z*



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Old 03-03-2012     Top   #1
kwaw 
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I am not aware of their having met, but he was aware of course of the works and theories of Freud and Jung - who were after all the dining table talk of their time.

quote:
"Ever the Swiss pastor's son, Jung refused to see the psyche as a dark well of turbulent desire that needed the lid kept firmly on. The Jungian unconscious was not located in the libido or even in the individual: it was always the collective unconscious, a privileged pipeline into other psyches, a para-psychological receiver picking up signals from across time. Instead of being the devil in disguise, the unconscious tended towards God. So for Jung mythology wasn't just a cover-story for sex, another "displacement activity". Religion, alchemy, astrology, all had to be examined respectfully on their own terms. Aleister Crowley was probably right to say that in Jung's work "we see Science gracefully bowing her maiden brows before her old father, Magic". All of Jung is a massive critique of Enlightenment rationality."
end quote from

He believed in ghosts and aliens
Andy Martin reviews Jung by Deirdre Bair
The Daily Telegraph, January 7, 2004

Andy Martin's quote is from Crowley's essay
AN IMPROVEMENT ON PSYCHO-ANALYSIS



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Last edited by kwaw; 03-03-2012 at 18:06.
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Old 03-03-2012     Top   #2
Richard 
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Thanks for that post; I needed a laugh. I got a big kick out of the stereotyped half-truths about Jung in that quotation . Hope no offense will be taken if I clear the air a bit. I don't mean to take all of the fun out of it, but some folks really believe all that stuff.

Quote:
"The Jungian unconscious was not located in the libido or even in the individual: it was always the collective unconscious, a privileged pipeline into other psyches, a para-psychological receiver picking up signals from across time."
False. Jung distinguishes between the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious.
Quote:
"...the unconscious tended towards God."
It's not clear that Jung even believed in a God, except perhaps as a metaphor.
Quote:
"All of Jung is a massive critique of Enlightenment rationality."
That statement is a massive exaggeration.
Quote:
"He believed in ghosts and aliens."
There's no evidence of this even in his flying saucer book.

Last edited by Richard; 03-03-2012 at 19:12.
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Old 03-03-2012     Top   #3
kwaw 
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Yep - typical new age 'psycho-babble' regurgitating ill-digested bits of Jung

(The quote is from the newspaper article, not Crowley - follow the Crowley link for something sleightly more skeptical!).



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Old 03-03-2012     Top   #4
Richard 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zezina View Post
I often wonder if Carl Jung and Aleister Crowley ever met, as they were both born in 1875.

Both had brilliant minds, and Crowley frequently visited Germany, where Jung lived.........Does anyone here know if these two men ever met? I've searched for evidence that they did, but have failed to come up with any evidence.

*Z*
It seems improbable that they ever met. Jung was born in Switzerland and spent most of his life there. If there had been an amicable encounter between Jung and Crowley, it seems likely that they would have corresponded, but there is no evidence of such. They did have common interests, such as the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche, but the intellectuals of that period were generally familiar with the literary output of other writers in that time frame.

ETA. The MBTI is fun, and it is certainly suggestive since there are the same number of types as there are court cards. However, it doesn't work out as smoothly as the somewhat surprising Golden Dawn correspondences of the Trumps with the twenty-two inter-Sephirotic paths on the Tree of Life. I know (I've tried). Nonetheless, it makes for some intriguing speculation.

Last edited by Richard; 03-03-2012 at 23:35.
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Old 03-03-2012     Top   #5
Zephyros 
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I must say I know little about Jung, never actually got to explore him that much. However, I do know this, there is far too much New Age preoccupation with him, as if he is the father of it all. That's enough to turn me off the correlation.

Same thing with people like Joseph Campbell. Although I practically revere The Hero with a Thousand Faces, I don't connect him with mysticism and Tarot at all, I find it a bit far fetched.



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Old 04-03-2012     Top   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I must say I know little about Jung, never actually got to explore him that much. However, I do know this, there is far too much New Age preoccupation with him, as if he is the father of it all. That's enough to turn me off the correlation.

Same thing with people like Joseph Campbell. Although I practically revere The Hero with a Thousand Faces, I don't connect him with mysticism and Tarot at all, I find it a bit far fetched.
I had the good fortune of becoming interested in Jung before he became the darling of the New Age movement. Actually, Joseph Campbell wrote a short section on the Marseille deck in a book entitled Tarot Revelations, co-authored by Campbell and Richard Roberts. Most of the book was written by Roberts and focusses on things like the alchemical color symbolism in the Rider-Waite. Campbell's contribution is totally humanistic and non-esoteric.
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Old 04-03-2012     Top   #7
Zephyros 
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Zezina, I have to apologize somewhat, it seems you asked a question and it has been shot down most unceremoniously. You will find that on certain subjects people get riled up. Jung and his theories as pertaining to the New Age movement is one of them. While his theories may or may not have been applicable to spirituality (like I said, I can't comment on if they were, I don't know), his name is thrown about so often it has become a by-word for white-light shallow New Age.

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Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Actually, Joseph Campbell wrote a short section on the Marseille deck in a book entitled Tarot Revelations, co-authored by Campbell and Richard Roberts. Most of the book was written by Roberts and focusses on things like the alchemical color symbolism in the Rider-Waite. Campbell's contribution is totally humanistic and non-esoteric.
Really? I didn't know that. Actually, my source is a blog I don't think I should post here, since it belonged to an ex-member of Aeclectic, and a controversial one at that, but he claims that Campbell knew nothing of Tarot, and merely took a pack one evening to look at before giving a lecture on it.



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Old 04-03-2012     Top   #8
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As far as I know the only "big name" psychologist Crowley claimed to have met was Alfred Adler.



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Old 04-03-2012     Top   #9
Richard 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
......Really? I didn't know that. Actually, my source is a blog I don't think I should post here, since it belonged to an ex-member of Aeclectic, and a controversial one at that, but he claims that Campbell knew nothing of Tarot, and merely took a pack one evening to look at before giving a lecture on it.
There is probably some truth in your source. Actually, neither Jung nor Campbell had much interest in Tarot. Jung seems more interested in the I Ching (as it relates to synchronicity), probably because of the German translation by his good friend Richard Wilhelm.
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Old 04-03-2012     Top   #10
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