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Astraea 
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Not sure how much help this will be, but recently there was a thread about the relationship between playing card insets and Lenormand imagery - here's a link: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...hlight=playing



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Old 21-04-2012 Need help fast? Chat with a live Tarot reader now!     Top   #11
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No Tower Left Behind


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
With Spades there's a slight tendency towards benefiting from associations or interactions with others (except for Tower ~ whose isolation might just prove the point).
I wanted to select this particular observation, re Tower, to say, we may "feel" that there is something "isolated" about various Towers down through history, or from literature and motion pictures, etc., but Towers are/were (imho) historically social, self-sufficient, and even as a defence in turmoil, a refuge designed to sustain life and freedom for the core group.

Cartomantic Towers verge almost universally toward the negative, catastrophe past/present/future, but if my world were being turned upside down and there was one sure haven, the Tower... I would flee with my loved ones and as many processions as could be carried, thence. Haste, post haste!

In times of peace the Tower would represent unity and strength; in turmoil, a sturdy sanctuary. Maybe "towers" have become confused with dungeons, or Dr. Frankenstein's penthouse laboratory, but I'm pretty sure that most folks "way back when" would've associated a Tower with either a church steeple and thus the community bell, or one of those prestigious new-fangled clock Towers, and later maybe something to do with water (those prominent Towers we all know so well, often proudly proclaiming our hometown by name).

Towers have (imho) most always been associated with community. Solidity, safety, endurance.

XVI La Maison Dieu does not translate as "The Tower" ~but even 16 The Tower (with all of its interpretive horrors) should be considered as something separate when it comes to~ The Lenormand Oracle.

Long study has led me to conclude that the early "LeNormand" decks (circa 1845 and printed in a Germany more inclined to Protestantism than the restricted and suppressive market country, an increasingly secular 'Catholic' France) were based on tea leaf readings, and when printed were combined with the well-known 36 card Le Petit Jeu Fortune Telling playing-card-based decks. As to the numbering of the cards, there being no discernable sequence, I would suggest that the "system" was initially arbitrary, and subsequently universal.

Just imagine, if Edward "Frater Perdurabo" Alexander Crowley had been pre-reincarnated as "Madame" Marie Anne Adelaide viz. [videlicet] "Le Normand" instead of as the ghost of Eliphas Levi (sorta, kinda, what's 6 months more or less) we might have had a nasty wanker flipping cards at hoity toss off plonkers cruising Brighton Beach, and I'm not even going to think about how Eddy might've enhanced his economic environment with a bit of applied palmistry. The kid is a god, Aleister... immortal (check my spelling)!

I digress.

Mary, I have read every word, with sincere interest, and many many thanks. I apologise for getting carried away, but with certain subjects I can't help but indulge, just a wee bit. Towers arouse my imagination! Thank you, always.

Last edited by KariRoad; 21-04-2012 at 17:30. Reason: that old thing, its (posseive) and it's (it is) ~wanted to get it right.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
With Spades there's a slight tendency towards benefiting from associations or interactions with others (except for Tower-whose isolation might just prove the point).
The Spades seem to have to do with travel (Ship, Anchor) and communication/society (Letter, Garden, Bouquet). I see Tower as authority, red tape, corporations and other official matters and Lily can indicate a respected professional person such as a lawyer to me, i.e. legal matters. This all ties in neatly with a Spades/Swords/Air association for me.

I never associated elements and Tarot suits with Lenormand until I associated Clubs with Coins/Pentacles and Diamonds with Batons/Wands. According to Huson, this was the thinking of Etteila who was a contemporary of Lenormand (not that I am convinced that she invented the Lenormand deck). The Clubs English suit name is so confusing, in French they are trèfles (clovers) and in Italian fiori (flowers), a design on the Italian coins.



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lord_ewin 
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KariRoad mentions very good points on the Tower. In Lenormand it can mean a dungeon, it is also a high vantage point to "lookout" for trouble (or opportunities). As defenses go, a tower is vulnerable and relies on others for support, and we can't forget ITarot's more modern sky scraper that involves corporations and organizations.

In love, I see the tower as the princess in her tower. She has everything she needs, but is lonely. So self-sufficient, but lonely.

Very interesting discussion on the suits though! Good thoughts in here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KariRoad View Post
Long study has led me to conclude that the early "LeNormand" decks (circa 1845 and printed in a Germany more inclined to Protestantism than the restricted and suppressive market country, an increasingly secular 'Catholic' France) were based on tea leaf readings, and when printed were combined with the well-known 36 card Le Petit Jeu Fortune Telling playing-card-based decks.
As a collector of old fortune-telling books, I'd noticed the similarities to tea leaf symbols myself. I've checked all my old books of playing card meanings and haven't found any parallels yet, but I don't have access to old German cartomancy books, that I'm hoping might be a little more revealing.

BTW - I've notice that the 6's could be seen to relate to: tall, short, near, far (Tower, Clover, Cross, Stars) - but that might be a stretch.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
So, you are saying to just use the cards as playing cards and forget the pictures? As if I could forget the pictures! Also - a piquet deck only uses 32 cards (no 6s) and the English system uses 52 cards so you'd have to adapt a playing card system anyway.
I meant to forget the pictures when reading the playing cards. This can happen before or after you already read the Lenormand pictures. It`s not to ignore completely, but temporary, during reading the playing card story.
In the end you have 2 sources of information, playing cards and Lenormand that complete each other as a whole, but not card by card. The mix is in the end result, not during the process.
I don`t believe in reading each card simultaneously, like playing card and Lenormand, trying to fit one to each other. It`s artificial and often too stretched, they go by different systems.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daphne View Post
I meant to forget the pictures when reading the playing cards. This can happen before or after you already read the Lenormand pictures. It`s not to ignore completely, but temporary, during reading the playing card story.
In the end you have 2 sources of information
Daphne - thank you so much for clarifying. I can be a little dense sometimes.

Personally, it makes most sense to read the Lenormand symbols and then reshuffle the deck and layout the cards again and read only the playing cards. That way you only have to carry one deck with you.

When you do this, do you use standard playing card meanings where the Queen of Spades is a divorced, widowed or evil woman and the rest of the Spades suit is equally troubling?



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lord_ewin 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
So, you are saying to just use the cards as playing cards and forget the pictures? As if I could forget the pictures! Also - a piquet deck only uses 32 cards (no 6s) and the English system uses 52 cards so you'd have to adapt a playing card system anyway.
I missed this. To clarify, Piquet originally started off with 32 cards, and nearer Ms. Lenormand's time some started playing with the 6s added for 36. In fact, both versions were being played at the time. It varied the cards in your hand slightly, so that you couldn't entirely guess your opponent's hand. Unfortunately, my source is in French, but will gladly point you to it if you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
BTW - I've notice that the 6's could be seen to relate to: tall, short, near, far (Tower, Clover, Cross, Stars) - but that might be a stretch.
Interesting! We also take the stork to mean tall, the bear for corpulant and strong, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daphne View Post
I meant to forget the pictures when reading the playing cards. This can happen before or after you already read the Lenormand pictures. It`s not to ignore completely, but temporary, during reading the playing card story.
In the end you have 2 sources of information, playing cards and Lenormand that complete each other as a whole, but not card by card. The mix is in the end result, not during the process.
I don`t believe in reading each card simultaneously, like playing card and Lenormand, trying to fit one to each other. It`s artificial and often too stretched, they go by different systems.
I've thought of doing this on several occasions but haven't done so. I usually have a card deck with me anyway, so I haven't really dived into the cartomancy with my Lenormand decks. I haven't seen the point given that I already get lots of answera, but I'd like to see a reading tha incorporates this at some point!
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andybc 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_ewin View Post
KariRoad mentions very good points on the Tower. In Lenormand it can mean a dungeon, it is also a high vantage point to "lookout" for trouble (or opportunities). As defenses go, a tower is vulnerable and relies on others for support, and we can't forget ITarot's more modern sky scraper that involves corporations and organizations.

In love, I see the tower as the princess in her tower. She has everything she needs, but is lonely. So self-sufficient, but lonely.

Very interesting discussion on the suits though! Good thoughts in here!
I was always told, and it seems quite true in readings, that you want the High Tower and Mountain far away from the Lady and Gentleman.

When you get 28/29 + 19 + 28/29 they've always split, with the one on the left pushing the one on the right away. I dread seeing it in readings now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
As a collector of old fortune-telling books, I'd noticed the similarities to tea leaf symbols myself. I've checked all my old books of playing card meanings and haven't found any parallels yet, but I don't have access to old German cartomancy books, that I'm hoping might be a little more revealing.

BTW - I've notice that the 6's could be seen to relate to: tall, short, near, far (Tower, Clover, Cross, Stars) - but that might be a stretch.
The only similarities I've ever seen with Lenormand and another system, is tea leaves. After all with the tea leaves you read by symbol not by picture. Plus you have the bottom and top of the cup too.
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lord_ewin 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andybc View Post
I was always told, and it seems quite true in readings, that you want the High Tower and Mountain far away from the Lady and Gentleman.

When you get 28/29 + 19 + 28/29 they've always split, with the one on the left pushing the one on the right away. I dread seeing it in readings now.
Good point! Thanks for the reminder!!
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