A State of Abstraction - Le Bateleur

[LRichard]

Originally Posted by Debra

You know, I haven't actually seen any serious recent claims that the tarot trumps originate with the Egyptians......

I haven't either. A few people who post here on AT claim that esoteric 20th century Tarot (such as Rider-Waite) is a product of those who believe in Egyptian origins (which is thereby supposed to discredit the creators of such decks). Naturally, I won't name names, but this false reasoning occurred once or twice in a fairly recent thread. I suppose it's too much to expect everyone to get their facts straight.

[Rosanne]

Oh dear I wrote this answer before I logged in and it has dissapeared so here goes again....poo bah!

Well montebanke does not cut the mustard as that term was not used until 1600 and today it is Saltimbanco like the circus.
We have not yet got him up on a rope.......
As debra noted he has not the garb of a medieval jurist.
Bateleur is not a type of person- it is a specific person.

Now he must be doing some sort of balancing.
Maybe it is related to Double entry bookkeeping?
After all- same place, same time as Tarot.
That must have looked like accounting hocus pocus back then, and The Visconti man is filling in a ledger of some sort. Tarot comes in debit and credit pairs and the fool does not upset the balance as he has no value.
Ho hum more musing on the horizon...
~Rosanne

[Rosanne]

Well well well!

It is suggested that Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici introduced this method for the Medici bank in the 14th century. He did not invent it (DE Bookkeeping) but he did Mother Church's books - that must have been a walk on a rope.{rotfl} As a young man he was not wealthy- but very clever.... He married money. By the time of Tarot he had spread DEB all around Italy.
~Rosanne

[Debra]

Well as a common character type (which seems more accurate than "archetype") there's the flim-flam intellectual poser with a funny hat and cane and a glass of alcohol. The best perhaps WC Fields. Called himself "professor" in the films and often had a top hat and hooked walking stick for slapstick comedy and sleight of hand. A fabulous juggler. The pretentious title of professor is akin to being a lawyer, a clever trickster.

With the hat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZfHe...eature=related

and juggling to die for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Yjb...eature=related

[Rosanne]

Well I liked that Debra........
But look at this...

Fr.-Anglo-Latin; tallia; Fr.L.:talea (a stick); a Tally stick.

The tally stick was used as two halves once money was loaned
Credit from he gives and debit - he owes
This was accepted by French and Italian Courts right up to 1700's for those who could not read or write.
The Qur'an comes from the Arabic for accounts/ing what you owe God- your ledger of life/soul.

[Bernice]

So it seems that the stick-thing which appears all versions of this card (as Rosanne has rightly noted) can morph into a Balancing Pole, a long Pen, a Lawyers 'thingy', a Tally Stick, a Cigar - and a Rider Waite Wand - depending on location and mind-set. I can see the morph from a balancing pole to a tally-stick, both visually and metaphorically. The Noblet 'thing' remains confusing though.

Something else that is consisant is the Table. Whoever or whatever Le Bateleur represents, his table or working surface has also been retained. Wondering if lawyers or book-keepers had a street 'stand' (table) to promote their business.


Bee x

[Rosanne]

Hi Bee!

Really what I am curious about is how people read this card (TdM)- i.e Noblet.
Does reading cards make me an occultist? Hehehe.

Lets go to Huson.
Medieval street entertainer.
Juggler with the one principle- sleight of hand.
The archetypal trickster.
Mercury
Gertrude Moakley said the Italian tarocco title Bagatto could derive from Begatt meaning gossip in the Milanese dialect. (I have not been able to find this myself and the Milanese pattern is a cobbler not a juggler)
Mercury is the basis for Merchant.
Pratesi's Cartomancer says he is a married man -Bagattino (Huh?)
De mellor 1781 Mountebank (acceptable after 1650)
De GEBLIN says it is The Thimble-rigger.
- all other books seems to conflate Juggler with Rope walker- Fair ground man.
Kaplan seems to give description to RWS whilst using TdM.
I cannot find description of Bateleur- the French title.
Robert Place takes not the usual TdM, but a uncut sheet from the 1500 and says the (very clear) dice show that Card one is a gambler and a rogue. (a futher discussion that dice were used for divination in the Renaissance)
So where does this leave the reader of the typical TdM?
Given that I possibly believe the Visconti creator knew of a prototype Tarot I still am inclined to think of him as less a rogue and more a Profession of some sort.
Or a parody of some sort of Profession- Like the Pardoner or the Lawyer or street banker.
~Rosanne

[Bernice]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Hi Bee!

Really what I am curious about is how people read this card (TdM)- i.e Noblet.
Does reading cards make me an occultist? Hehehe.

........

So where does this leave the reader of the typical TdM?
Given that I possibly believe the Visconti creator knew of a prototype Tarot I still am inclined to think of him as less a rogue and more a Profession of some sort.
Or a parody of some sort of Profession- Like the Pardoner or the Lawyer or street banker.
~Rosanne

In this context it would seem that he is able to operate within civil/legal rulings, and like a double-edged sword, he can be for you or against you. But always bear in mind that he will give consideration his own reputation, for business perposes .


How's that?

Bee x

[Lumen]

This is a provocative thread, and I must place my perspective here.

I do not have any historical knowledge of Tarot cards, other than its pictorial view of the ways of the past, or pre-1500, colonization period. So, in this sense, I cannot speak for Tarot and any connection to Egyptian symbols. But, since Egypt symbology has been re-interpreted to fit whoever's ideology of the time, I have to say that the symbols exist, but in a different depiction and interpretation. In fact, Egyptian symbols were taken from ancient and pre-civilization beliefs that focus on earth and astronomical elements and events (please, see the first part of Zeitgeist, 2007, available on Youtube).

Now, I've always seen Tarot as a journey of the individual through life, his/her experiences within society, and in my specific deck - Grimaud - I see the life experiences specific of a time-space connection. So, in this vein, Le Mat is the first step we make in this journey: innocent, naive, moved by instincts, and going onto the unknown. S/he then first encounter a man in his path, Le Bateleur. This is someone with an amazing self-confidence who deceives him (because you have to have this type of confidence to deceive a bunch of people). Thus, this is the first step, the first obstacle, and the first challenge for Le Mat. And Le Bateleur being the trickster, he may sell him some idea, or support in exchange of something Le Mat has.

In this sense, yes, Le Bateleur is the rapacious predator, or vampire, to suck your possessions, life, or whatever you have of value in order to set you on your path. It is a give and take guy: you give and he takes, or he takes whatever you can give in order to set you further on your path, or the illusion that you are on your path.

I think Bernice's view of the tight rope walker as a metaphor for the actions promoted by Le Bateleur speaks clearly of his questionable morality. He "helps" along your path, but deceives you while doing it - a true skilled manipulator.

On a related note, I'm very skeptical of Wikipedia as source of facts, anyone can post there, and so opinions, more than facts, are bound to be enmeshed with factual data. I do not allow my students to use it as a research source. Sources on facts come from deep and serious research, published by reliable sources who pride on exposing truth through research. Wikipedia could very well take the role of Le Bateleur...

As I'm watching at this moment the doc "Inside Job" I can only think of Le Bateuleur represented in the bankers, insurance CEOs, and all of those 1% (apropo number) who are at the top of financial decision-making while screwing 30m people. These guys are the ultimate Bateuleur - working on deception, manipulation, and twisting laws, regulation, cooking books, hiding their deals from the public in a "blatant disregard on the impact that they have" on the society and economy. And I think the lawyers that participated in this massive swindle are the tools on Bateuleur's table.

[Rosanne]

Hi Lumen!
There is lot to answer.
From Bottom to top perhaps......
I have always seen the Devil in that what you see as the Bateleur. The corporation without concscience etc But your analogy of the tools as the Lawyer is very descriptive.
I have a query though historically. People say yes he is a low life yet he is right next door to the Popesse. Two fakes?
I do not think of the Tarot Journey through life- I think of this in the main.....
What do I do/do not do in relation to a question.

You I take it, see him as the fairground man- the tightrope guy? It has to be an analogy for his walk- because there has never been this guy without his table, feet firmly on the ground.

~Rosanne