numbers game?

[Lotus Padma]

I was just wondering if any one else here uses the Majors numbers to help clarify meanings of the cards in the Celtic Cross spread.

ie, when I am using the Cross, I will for instance think as I am laying down the cards: Position Two, the crossing card (as an example only), relates back to the High Priestess...secrets, mysteries, the otherworld...and I got the Ace of Cups in that slot. So it means a mysterious or overwhelming feeling of love, or a sudden opening of the heart...or a new connection with my inner self, or with the divine. But it is crossing, so it means also that my subconscious may be interfering with my ability to connect to the divine..."

or, say, position 7 on the Cross, 7 relates to the Chariot...so I will think (for an example only) oh, look, I've got the 6 of Cups in the 7 slot - 7 is the fears slot - so, conquering old habits, afraid of the past but able to get over the fear...or afraid of having to deal with old relationships - but not to worry, I can win, I can conquer my fear , maybe a trip back down memory lane will help me overcome the fears" (Influence of Chariot).

Just wondering if anyone has any opinion on reading this way, or using the numbers of the majors to help clarify meanings of cards in the positions - because it seems to me, the entire Tarot is based on numbers and numerology...(just my luck, as I am so bad at math! ;p numerically dyslexic...)

[Dolphin_Dreamer]

That sure is interesting.. I've never done it that way but it would give an interesting read..

Your way would certainly lead to another 'level' of discovery, whether it be personal or not..

Altho anything past the 10 or Wheel of fortune would be un answered unless you specifically laid it out to do 11+..

[Lotus Padma]

Originally Posted by Dolphin_Dreamer

That sure is interesting.. I've never done it that way but it would give an interesting read..

Your way would certainly lead to another 'level' of discovery, whether it be personal or not..

Altho anything past the 10 or Wheel of fortune would be un answered unless you specifically laid it out to do 11+..

Thanks Dolphin I did find it gave a new level to my readings, yes, a little more insight...it did help make the reading clearer. But that is an interesting drawback you just pointed out.

I guess one could use a spread of 21 and not a cross, giving each slot or card position meaning, the meaning of the Major belonging to that number (ie position 1, the Fool, Beginnings and Attitudes or Faith and Trust - etc., through to the World) - and then shuffle all 78 cards and do the spread - I think I will try that! Once I have worked it out, I will post it here...Thanks for the added inspiration!

[Masa]

I've always wanted to try a spread where I laid out all the major arcana in a row, then laid minor arcana on top of them for the ways in which my life is currently fulfilling each archetype.

[Lotus Padma]

Originally Posted by Masa

I've always wanted to try a spread where I laid out all the major arcana in a row, then laid minor arcana on top of them for the ways in which my life is currently fulfilling each archetype.

I am going to try something similar, Masa

Have you ever tried associating the majors numbers with your detailed spreads? (like Celtic Cross or Tree of Life, e.g.)

[Masa]

Originally Posted by Lotus Padma

Have you ever tried associating the majors numbers with your detailed spreads? (like Celtic Cross or Tree of Life, e.g.)

I haven't, and actually it puzzles me a little. If I'm not understanding you totally wrong, it seems a little like doing two spreads simultaneously? Like, "this card represents the future, and it also represents the Lovers." I mean, I guess the future can reasonably be considered as being about choices, but /always/? Except, wait. By explaining why this doesn't work for me, I'm actually talking myself into it now. XD

Okay. If I were going to apply the majors to the Celtic Cross, I actually end up keeping both the order I currently lay them down in (center first, then cross clockwise from bottom, then staff from bottom to top), and the fundamental meanings I use! One position gets to do double duty, though. I would interpret it like this:

Card One: In center. The Fool. Represents the querant (their conscious).
Card Two: Crossing that. The Magician. Represents the situation life is currently handing to the querant.
Card Three: Beneath those. The High Priestess. Represents the subconsicous, the querant's intuitive response to the situation.
Card Four: To the left. BOTH the Empress and the Emperor. The querant's parents, which is to say, their past.
Card Five: Above. The Hierophant. The superconscious, what the querant is actively focusing on.
Card Six: To the right. The Lovers. Decisions or situations the querant will deal with next.
Card Seven: Bottom of the staff. The Chariot. The querant in general, as life has made them so far, hero and protagonist of their own story.
Card Eight: Above that. Strength. The enviroment currently shaping or being shaped by the querant.
Card Nine: Above that. Hermit. An unexamined truth, possibility, or key to the situation that needs attention.
Card Ten: At the top. The Wheel of Fortune. Life keeps rolling along, doesn't it?

Then, the way I'd deal with the other half would be another variant on the same thing. In this, I would change the order I laid them down in, so watch out for the switch! Also, I changed which position gets doubles.

Card One: In center. Justice. The querant, weighing their options.
Card Two: Crossing that. The Hanged Man. The situation puzzling the querant or upending their expectations.
Card Three: To the left. Death. What is passing out of the querant's life.
Card Four: Above. Temperance. How the querant can best consicously manage the situation.
Card Five: Below. The Devil. The querant's driving gut urges.
Card Six: To the right. The Tower. What is about to crash land in the querant's life.
Card Seven: Bottom of the staff. The Star. A vision of the querant's identity and purpose.
Card Eight: Above that. The Moon. The environment, including light and shadow, wolves and dogs.
Card Nine: Above that. The Sun. A ray of illumination on the querant's life.
Card Ten: At the top. BOTH Judgment and the World. How does this all work out? Where is it going?


...Notice that the first spread is more mundane and thoughtful and emphasizes the past. The second one is much more divinatory, and has its double card in the future. So one would use them for different sorts of readings, I guess.

Well, THAT got crazier and more complicated than I anticipated! Thanks for the brainwave.

[Lotus Padma]

Originally Posted by Masa

I haven't, and actually it puzzles me a little. If I'm not understanding you totally wrong, it seems a little like doing two spreads simultaneously? Like, "this card represents the future, and it also represents the Lovers." I mean, I guess the future can reasonably be considered as being about choices, but /always/? Except, wait. By explaining why this doesn't work for me, I'm actually talking myself into it now. XD

Okay. If I were going to apply the majors to the Celtic Cross, I actually end up keeping both the order I currently lay them down in (center first, then cross clockwise from bottom, then staff from bottom to top), and the fundamental meanings I use! One position gets to do double duty, though. I would interpret it like this:

Card One: In center. The Fool. Represents the querant (their conscious).
Card Two: Crossing that. The Magician. Represents the situation life is currently handing to the querant.
Card Three: Beneath those. The High Priestess. Represents the subconsicous, the querant's intuitive response to the situation.
Card Four: To the left. BOTH the Empress and the Emperor. The querant's parents, which is to say, their past.
Card Five: Above. The Hierophant. The superconscious, what the querant is actively focusing on.
Card Six: To the right. The Lovers. Decisions or situations the querant will deal with next.
Card Seven: Bottom of the staff. The Chariot. The querant in general, as life has made them so far, hero and protagonist of their own story.
Card Eight: Above that. Strength. The enviroment currently shaping or being shaped by the querant.
Card Nine: Above that. Hermit. An unexamined truth, possibility, or key to the situation that needs attention.
Card Ten: At the top. The Wheel of Fortune. Life keeps rolling along, doesn't it?

Then, the way I'd deal with the other half would be another variant on the same thing. In this, I would change the order I laid them down in, so watch out for the switch! Also, I changed which position gets doubles.

Card One: In center. Justice. The querant, weighing their options.
Card Two: Crossing that. The Hanged Man. The situation puzzling the querant or upending their expectations.
Card Three: To the left. Death. What is passing out of the querant's life.
Card Four: Above. Temperance. How the querant can best consicously manage the situation.
Card Five: Below. The Devil. The querant's driving gut urges.
Card Six: To the right. The Tower. What is about to crash land in the querant's life.
Card Seven: Bottom of the staff. The Star. A vision of the querant's identity and purpose.
Card Eight: Above that. The Moon. The environment, including light and shadow, wolves and dogs.
Card Nine: Above that. The Sun. A ray of illumination on the querant's life.
Card Ten: At the top. BOTH Judgment and the World. How does this all work out? Where is it going?


...Notice that the first spread is more mundane and thoughtful and emphasizes the past. The second one is much more divinatory, and has its double card in the future. So one would use them for different sorts of readings, I guess.

Well, THAT got crazier and more complicated than I anticipated! Thanks for the brainwave.

ZOMG! Masa, that was positively brilliant! I must do it tomorrow - and didn't you see it adding so much more depth to the cards that landed in those slots? You SO got it! *I worship at Masa's brainwave depot* lol!

[Masa]

Originally Posted by Lotus Padma

ZOMG! Masa, that was positively brilliant! I must do it tomorrow - and didn't you see it adding so much more depth to the cards that landed in those slots? You SO got it! *I worship at Masa's brainwave depot* lol!

Yeah, it was pretty fascinating! I don't think I would like it so much if I tried to use majors with really different meanings for the positions--like, if the "environment" card was the Fool or something. Although then I could be thinking of it as "the land you're adventuring through" or something...

So, okay, forget it. Everything I do to complain about this or say it doesn't work turns into a good example. XD Awesome discovery!

[Lotus Padma]

Originally Posted by Masa

Yeah, it was pretty fascinating! I don't think I would like it so much if I tried to use majors with really different meanings for the positions--like, if the "environment" card was the Fool or something. Although then I could be thinking of it as "the land you're adventuring through" or something...

So, okay, forget it. Everything I do to complain about this or say it doesn't work turns into a good example. XD Awesome discovery!

that is really cool, Masa - and I am glad you are sharing how you see it, because you are inspiring me too and it DOES work, that's the thing...I somehow think the Majors are the keys to make the minors work properly, and vice versa! And it all has to do with the number assignations...

ETA I am posting a proper sample of part of a spread here, because I think I was quite vague in my initial post - and that Dolphin and Masa are *really* good at picking up on vague things! lol...

I am keeping the meanings very short however.

Part of a Sample spread, Celtic Cross, no reversals:

I let the deck choose the signifier.

Signifier: position 0: the Lovers: a decision to be made, a watershed moment in life. As influenced by The Fool: The need to make a decision is doubly aspected here; both Lovers and Fool designates a choice. As influenced by the Fool, though, I think the querant is allowing fate to take him where it will. He is not actively controlling his choice.

Card 1, cover card: What surrounds the question: nine of Wands. The querant is very self-defensive; or feels attacked. A need to defend the self, feeling threatened. As influenced by the Magician: Using all of one's talents and energy to defend the self. Incorrect application of energy which could be better used elsewehere, as opposed to siphoned off like this into protecting the ego. Shows the querant is using his creative skills in order to lie to himself in some way.

Card 2, crossing card: Queen of cups. The emotions are helping or hindering...or a person is causing this need to protect the self. Feeling blocked by such a woman, or feeling she might help. In view of card 1, I think the querant feels threatened by the Queen, or at the very least, feels their emotions have been hurt. As influenced by High Priestess: Feeling at odds with one's own inner emotions, fighting the self, disallowing the inner voice to speak. Feeling threatened by one's own femininity, insofar as Q of Cups reflects that. Clarity might be obtained if the querant would allow self to connect to emotions and let the subconscious mind speak.

Base of the question, position 3: The Empress. A social situation, or a creative project. As aspected by the Empress, card 3: Highlighted by the Empress falling into her own number slot. So, I get the feeling already (based on the last few cards) the querant feels threatened in a social situation, and one that (seems to me) is full of women, or a feminine presence is ruling the entire social gathering, and the querant has the ability to communicate to this group, and actually grow from the contact, and help herself to what is offered - but is feeling too self-defensive to do so properly.

And so on. I hope this makes my idea a little clearer! maybe this should go in experimental tarot thread... ;p