Your experiences with the Astrological attributions of the Court Cards.

[Fianic]

As those of you who have read the Book of Thoth know, each court card corresponds to 30 decanates of the signs, and that you can find a significator according to your Sun or Rising signs.

I've had some trouble using this method for finding a significator. Using my rising sign I'm the Prince of Disks and I can see that other people can see me this way.

But I want a significator that shows the "real" me and according to the book, I'm the Queen of Disks, and I don't really feel that fits me personally.

It may be because I was born on a cusp that this complication arose, I don't fully identify with Sagittarius or Capricorn. But is it just that?

What are your experiences? Do you feel that this method of finding a significator works perfectly? Or do you have trouble with it as well? And if so, how?

[Terrapin]

To address your concerns over courts not matching who you really are--a couple of thoughts:

Your rising sign qualities are often most recognized by others more so than yourself, so if you're doing a reading for yourself, the Prince of Disks, like you've said, probably isn't important as a significator. Some folks actually refer to the rising sign as a "mask." Mask seems cynical to me--I prefer to think of rising signs as the clothes we dress our selves up in, they show our tastes and interests--who we really would like to be or who we are honestly striving to be. But what about you Moon sign? My understanding is that the Moon sign is terribly important in determining your darknesses, your instincts, the stuff that is hidden inside of you and can causes you problems. Maybe problems just looking for some insight. Might seeing your Moon sign qualities more clearly help clarify your ambiguous Sun sign qualities? Moon signs add a lot of color to who you think you are and sometimes can really overpower you Sun sign qualities.

So if you are delving deep through a tarot reading for yourself, why not pull your Moon sign as your significator and focus on your mysteries and challenges? Do you know what I mean?

[Roy]

you don't look at the signs but planets, you find the Planet that rules your chart aka the chart ruler

so.. the planet that has the most dignity in the:

Sun
Moon
Ascendant
Lot of Fortune
Syzygy

do the math, and the planet with the most dignity is the chart ruler. If you don't know what i just said then you either learn more about astrology or don't use it at all, you can even ask someone to calculate it for you

you should never half step

[closrapexa]

I don't agree that you should never do anything halfway, especially where the Thoth is concerned; the only person in history, perhaps, who didn't use it halfway was its creator himself, and I doubt you have a lifetime of occult study under your belt (no offence, I don't either).

"...but the Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry"

Aleister Crowley

This does not mean to close yourself off to "formal" knowledge, but that even Crowley recognized the need for flexibility where Tarot was concerned (I believe that one of the most important lessons Tarot can teach us is flexibility of thought). The Thoth has so many facets, and not all of them harmonious, and it is difficult to use all of them in any case. I myself concentrate less on astrology and more on Kabbalah (and have recently begun to read about Sex Magick, another important symbolic element of the deck). For me, the Thoth is less a deck for reading (although I rarely use any other) and more of a map of a spiritual journey. I allow myself not to see all the sights all at once, I may or may not get to them in ten, twenty years (:.

As to your question, I use neither significators nor astrological attributions, but the Prince of Discs is "my" court as well, being born under the sign of Taurus. I was kind of bummed when I found that out, he seems quite a disagreeable fellow! But the significator need not "be" you, it merely represents you, a card you remove from the reading as a jumping off point. It is alright if you don't feel completely connected to it, that is perhaps the point. But these, of course, are just my own opinions.

[ravenest]

Originally Posted by Fianic

Do you feel that this method of finding a significator works perfectly? Or do you have trouble with it as well? And if so, how?

I dont select a significtor for readings, I draw the the first card and use that , sometimes its the 'right' one ..... and thats v.interesting.

But just looking at 'my' card, yes, I have had difficulty relating to it - in the past , but as time goes on ... God damn! I AM like that!

I have a 'wish significator' though ( a card I'd rather 'be like' ) Knight of Cups

[LRichard]

I don't know my exact time of birth, so I don't even know my Ascendant. I do know that I was born in the last Decan of Aries, so according to the sun sign, I may be the Prince of Disks (King of Pentacles in RWS), but I am just not Taurean enough to fit the description in BoT or Book T.

Originally Posted by Roy

you don't look at the signs but planets, you find the Planet that rules your chart aka the chart ruler

so.. the planet that has the most dignity in the:

Sun
Moon
Ascendant
Lot of Fortune
Syzygy

do the math, and the planet with the most dignity is the chart ruler. If you don't know what i just said then you either learn more about astrology or don't use it at all, you can even ask someone to calculate it for you

you should never half step

[Cassandra022]

Eh, I don't have much/any use for significators, especially not in actual readings, but...to the degree that I strongly identify with a Court, it is the Queen of Swords. Does that have anything to do with my astrological chart? Nooooo. But I'd rather go with what makes logical sense to me than with what is astrologically 'proper'.

Then again, as far as Thoth goes, I'm a very take it or leave it type of reader, I'm realizing. If it makes sense to me, I happily learn and incorporate into my reading. If it doesn't make sense to me, isn't my style, etc. Crowley himself could have explicitly written THIS is how it is done, and I'll say meh and ignore it. If my way gives me readings that I am satisfied with, I'm happy.

[Fianic]

Thanks on your experiences with significators, it's not necessary but I feel sometimes it helps.

Good point terrapin about using the Moon sign, didn't think of that and actually makes a lot of sense.

One more thing, do you guys think that the right cards were assigned to the right signs? Crowley mentioned that they were all jumbled together more or less on purpose, but I don't see why.

He even mentions that for example the Knight of Wands actually suits Aries more, but instead it's given to Sagittarius, the mutable/watery part of fire O_o.

[Terrapin]

One more thing, do you guys think that the right cards were assigned to the right signs? Crowley mentioned that they were all jumbled together more or less on purpose, but I don't see why. (Quote)

I do feel that the courts per Crowley are assigned the correct signs for reasons I find hard to articulate, but here goes. First of all I am one who feels the Queens are the highest ranking of the courts in terms of their available power; similar to the Queen in chess. She is the most developed in the world and can exercise great power of all aspects of life even if she is not doing it in an a very external way. (Maybe chess isn't the greatest analogy given that chess Queens can rocket all over the physical place, but they have the greatest power, none the less.) She has the greatest depth of feeling and influence upon the more active male characters in the deck. The Queens are assigned the cardinal signs which represent the 4 elements at their most pure, basic form. The Queens understand the basics of situations through intuition and knowledge of the foundation and importance of lessons (the "cardinal" rules if you will) learned. The Princes are the fixed signs, ie they being young and eager are somehow the least flexible of the lot and in their dash to achieve and make their way through a situation or event (or life) they are ironically, so full of youthful energy a bit too sure of themselves. They are more fixed in their outlook. The fixed signs are somewhat less able to see others opinions and are more stubborn to alter course. Finally, the mutable signs are assigned to the Knights, who too can surely be youthful and enthusiastic in their approaches OR wise and sage in their methods, either way are somewhat more eager to blend ideas, listen to others and therby advance in some new aspect. They are the true outward leaders. Their energies move forward. The Queens can sit still on the thrones and still move the world through their fundamental/cardinal gut knowing and still lead. The Princes are a bit more sure their ways are best and thus fixed.

Mutable signs: Sagittarius, Pisces, Gemini, Virgo
Fixed signs: Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, Taurus
Cardinal signs: Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn

Hope this helps. I am ever the slow and stumbling learner of astrology, but I think I have explained this the best I can. I'd be eager to hear from the more learned and like you Fianic would welcome more opinions.

[LRichard]

Crowley did not originate the astrological attributions. They are in the Golden Dawn document Book T. The symbolism used in the Rider-Waite court cards is also derived from this source.