Living with a Skeptic

[Narwhallove]

I gave my partner a work-related reading a few nights ago, and it was quite expansive. (The spread I used is from the Aeclectic ebook, the planets spread—good stuff!) After we were done, I asked him what he thought of the reading as a whole, and he said:

"It was good. It was almost like you knew the situation."

He insisted afterward that he *wasn't* being sarcastic, that this was a compliment, and that the reading was accurate and specific, but "you know about my job."

A little background: We met some years ago while we were both in graduate school. Before school, I was full pell-mell in tarot, studying and reading happily and learning as much as I could. I even took a tarot class with the now-defunct Avalon College. Then I started grad school and that was an all-consuming universe in which I could find no space or time for tarot. (Sad, really, because I needed tarot then more than ever.)

I even found myself arguing for atheism. I'm not a particularly spiritual "the angels are guiding my shuffle" person; nor am I convinced of the archetype argument either. I just know tarot works. My boyfriend is a deist—and seemed to rather wish an all-powerful God existed, whereas the furthest I'd go was "godlike forces that may or may not be sentient in the universe and certainly may not have created the universe."

Now that I'm back in tarot, I find our roles reversed: He's huffily talking about "allowing for a deterministic universe" and querying why God/godlike beings would possibly want to interact with a select group of tarot-studying humans, and I'm talking about "being OK with not knowing" if it's a godlike force or the power of the unconscious mind that makes tarot work.

I optimistically thought that a tarot reading would give him some insight of this and why I'm so committed to it. I thought the reading went well. I know that we don't have to agree on everything, and he certainly humors me when I want to babble about what I learned today on tarot, and hey! Disagreement is perfectly healthy. But I can't help feeling crestfallen, especially by his rather sarcastic rejoinder.

Anyone in a similar situation?

[closrapexa]

Most of my friends are atheists, and the few that are interested are curious, but nothing more. My Tarot journey is done solo, except for one or two "real life" people and the kind people at Aeclectic I manage to fool into reading my nonesense. (:

It is difficult, but inevitable, and I cannot remember a time it was any different. I try to tell them that Tarot isn't about answers, but questions. Even if you get supremely accurate readings, you still have a way to go in deciding what to do with them. Also, if nothing else, Tarot gives you a chance to just sit down and think of things, which people (surprisingly!) rarely do.

However, even that is sugar-coating, as I don't even tell people I'm into Thelema and Kabbalah and Sex Magick and what have you, then they would really think I was certifiable. But I do try to enlighten some on what I really do, and try to tell them it isn't New Age love and light and all that, but rather Old Age and quite not lovely. They don't always listen, in fact they rarely do, but that's just the way the world is.

I'm rambling and don't have an answer for you, only that atheism and skepticism can be just as fundamentalist in its outlook than any religion, which is, to my mind, a political construct rather than anything having to do with faith. I'm alone, accept it, and have no choice (:

[The crowned one]

I am not in a similar situation, but it seems to me you are in a position to have some wonderful discussions with him. I enjoyed your post.

If there is causality in the universe then random by definition can not exist, as it would have to be isolated from the previous event, and in nature that does not exist.To obtain a random distribution each event must be independent of every other event. Can systems in nature be independent? So if every event that takes place in the physical world is determined by a preceeding event, does this carry over to the body, if so...

Free will is, in my mind, to a greater degree related to time. Time and space are not constants so neither is free will, there will be degrees, we do have deterministic behaviors, they have helped us survive as a species, but we can overcome the programming with experience and improve on the "predetermined gene response" using our amazing cortex

God as a deity does not come into play to me with either free will or determinism.

[VGimlet]

Hmm. Well, I can say when my husband and I first got together 30 years ago, and for many years after, he was a skeptic for sure. He was never unsupportive or snarky, and I never complained about his many hobbies, many of which are money-vanishing holes of anti-matter, but he didn't think it worked. Any time it did work - coincidence. When I pressed him - he though it was interesting, but a little on the woo-woo side.

Fast forward to now. After seeing me read for others, and listening to the comments, AND having numerous stuff happen over the years, he knows it works. He admits it. It took awhile. Does he know how? No. (And he is pretty much an athiest, I am more open, but more of a pagan as it was traditionally meant). But he's okay with that. he even had me come to his work and read for people, because they'd been bugging him. And seeing my decks from far away come through.

I will say I was a little taken aback recently when I asked him what is the oddest thing about me for a quiz. (Girl gamer, writer, hardest-rock-you can imagine listener, someone who will pick up slugs and bugs bare handed....it's a long, long list) and he said, "Oh probably that you read tarot." My reaction was an astonished, "huh?" LOL.

That doesn't mean he doesn't support me, but even now he agrees it works he thinks it's unusual. (Really? Even more unusual than my love of fossils and skeletons?)

But for years, we agreed to disagree. He could appreciate my decks, and even understood the basic theory (enough to tell people, "OH, the Death card doesn't mean death, that's for the dramatic effect.') but it took a while before he agreed it works.

He is one of the few people I can't read for though. And he'd never read for himself. And that's okay.

[vee]

When my husband and I first got together, *I* was the skeptic. I still am, but I've mellowed out quite a bit. He is too gullible, I am too guarded. Together we balance eachother out.

As long as there is respect and love at the heart of it, I think it's very exciting to be with someone who sees things differently than you. As the crowned one said, you get to have all kinds of interesting discussions.

[Carla]

My husband doesn't care one way or the other. He encourages me because it is something I enjoy, but he has pretty much zero interest in it. He's not dismissive of it; he seems to believe that something is going on with the whole thing. But in the main, it's not really on his radar. He does like to have a reading, but actually, he will latch onto them too hard and I have to remind him that this is not what will definitely happen. Like the other day, I saw a traffic jam in his future for the day, he was like, 'Oh! Should I not go then? I could go another day.' And I had to say, no, you should go, it might not delay you very long. And might not even happen, it could be some other kind of obstacle or blockage. But other than that, he doesn't listen when I yammer on about decks and so forth.

[tarotbear]

Personally, I would just ignore him; you can agree to disagree and move onward. Tarot can be a solo act. Either that, or knee him in the groin when he gets obnoxious.

[trzes]

I remember this sort of situation from quite some time ago, but rather from the "other" side.

Originally Posted by Narwhallove

"It was good. It was almost like you knew the situation."

He insisted afterward that he *wasn't* being sarcastic, that this was a compliment, and that the reading was accurate and specific, but "you know about my job."

This statement could have been my own one, as an awkward and unsuccessul attempt to show at least some respect for a position contrary to my own. It sounds to me like it wasn't meant sarcastic indeed.

I think these questions about "what is it about tarot", "does divination work", "if so how does it work", "do the cards open our unconcious" tackle some fundamential issues about our view of the world and about how the whole universe functions. And it has an impact on how we judge things in daily life. That makes it hard not to become personally involved too much in a discussion. From my experience it is even harder for both sides to feel comfortable with a different view when the discussion is with your partner, because it affects how much "in tune" you can feel with each others. I guess, when both respectfully agree to disagree, that's the best way possible. I am not optimistic about how "wonderful" a long discussion would become.

(I mean, even the rather general philosphical claim of The Crowned One about causality and randomness being exclusive itches me enough that I would post a very long answer if it wasn't off topic. And I don't even know him, AND it doesn't really matter)

[The crowned one]

Originally Posted by trzes

(I mean, even the rather general philosphical claim of The Crowned One about causality and randomness being exclusive itches me enough that I would post a very long answer if it wasn't off topic. And I don't even know him, AND it doesn't really matter)

LOL, send me a PM.

[Narwhallove]

Originally Posted by trzes

(I mean, even the rather general philosphical claim of The Crowned One about causality and randomness being exclusive itches me enough that I would post a very long answer if it wasn't off topic. And I don't even know him, AND it doesn't really matter)

Hahah, I had started posting a quite long response, and then lost it because I had to leave the house in a hurry. I would LOVE to have that discussion here, b/c I'm frankly undecided about it all.

I think you're quite right that sometimes these discussions can verge on being *not wonderful* because they reveal some truly fundamental differences in one's world(universe)views, but it's sometimes important to discuss them. At the very least it's important to *be able* to—far more disappointing (for me) would be to be with someone for whom none if this mattered.

What I had wanted to say to crowned one was:

This is probably way over my head, but yes, science seems to more and more demonstrate that there are no independent systems, as everything is interrelated in some ecological or quantum way; and this leads to the notion that randomness does not exist. Rather, that what we perceive as chaos is order. And while I love the scientific investigation of this, I am on a purely sentimental level, disappointed. Surely the universe is yet big enough to contain randomness, and causality isn't some ruling principle? And yet, the guidance of tarot seems to indicate there is order.

This is my atheist and tarot-loving sides duelling. So in some ways, I'm my own skeptic as well.

Physics seems to demonstrate that all time has already happened, is happening, and will happen—and yet we must live as if nothing is predestined. This is knowledge (theoretical as it may be) flummoxes me, and I never know how to respond to it. Is this what makes tarot "work"? That the cards filter the knowing universe onto a human scale that our little brains can understand? Yet, even calling it "the knowing universe" implies some intelligence.

I wish I'd taken more than philosophy 101 in college—a class I more or less snoozed through, and learned more than Cartesian dualism, which is not helpful in tarot discussion.

I'm rambling now. Someone please guide me if I'm hopelessly misguided. Thank you to all who have responded with stories of your significant others. I take heart that not everyone's partners is on the same tarot page with them—and that some partners find it the most radical thing about them—fossil examining aside! If we agreed on everything, our brains would be far less challenged and wrinkly.

Tarotbear, I'll kick him in the groin if he's obnoxious ;-) but so far, so good.