The Passion and the Adjustment

scheherazade · 21-10-2003

In Thoth, I understand that these two cards are also known as "Strength" and "Justice," respectively. Did these two cards switch places in the order of the major arcana? If so, why did Thoth create his majors this way?

isthmus nekoi · 21-10-2003

Actually, Justice is originally 8, Strength 11. They are switched in the Rider Waite deck....

lawguy51 · 22-10-2003

It's actually called Lust, not Passion. You can see a picture of it here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/thoth/

top row on the right.

LG51

isthmus nekoi · 22-10-2003

oh, reread my post and it seemed a little terse, pls excuse me if it came off that way...

Crowley explains his decision to make keep the 8/11 thing going here (just click on 4. The Nature of the Evidence) http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowl...orytheory.html

He goes as far as to suggest that the Emperor should be switched w/the Star.

Neophyte · 23-10-2003

This topic has been a constant source of confusion for me. After reading Crowley's description of why a switch was necessary, I did a spread of the cards in the form of the astrological wheel with all the cards in their proper sign. Crowley states something about the symmetry of the switch (the Lust/Adjustment and Emperor/Star switch), and at first I was lookng for a numerological symmetry, but could not arrive at one. Then I noticed that both switches that took place were opposite each other on the wheel. The Lust/Adjustment is around Virgo and The Star/Emperor switch is around Pisces. Is this the basis of Crowley's statement of symmetry? I would assume so, but I doubt it somewhat because of the seeming simplicty of it.

scheherazade · 30-10-2003

Just asking objectively...

The Thoth deck was created before the Rider-Waite?

Rusty Neon · 30-10-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by scheherazade
Just asking objectively...

The Thoth deck was created before the Rider-Waite?

The Thoth deck was created after the RWS deck. Both decks have their inspiration from the teachings of the now-extinct Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn of which both Waite and Crowley were sometime members; however, the Thoth deck is also influenced by Crowleyian Thelemic doctrines.

Emily · 30-10-2003

Also the artwork of the Thoth was used to illustrate 'The book of Thoth' first published in 1944 and wasn't released as a deck until 1969, after Aleister Crowley's death in 1947. I always wonder what he and Lady Frieda would have made of the finished deck , would the colours and size have been right - would they have liked the sickly green colour of one version of the deck lol

Rusty Neon · 30-10-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Emily
Also the artwork of the Thoth was used to illustrate 'The book of Thoth' first published in 1944 and wasn't released as a deck until 1969, after Aleister Crowley's death in 1947. I always wonder what he and Lady Frieda would have made of the finished deck , would the colours and size have been right - would they have liked the sickly green colour of one version of the deck lol

It must be remembered that the card images of the Thoth deck are from watercolour paintings by Lady Frieda. I would presume that Lady Frieda, being the artist, would certainly have preferred the more recent, more colour-true photoreproductions of those watercolour paintings over the greenish photoreproductions of those same paintings. As for Mr Crowley, it's anyone's guess.

Alobar · 30-10-2003

i'm sure that AC would have insisted upon the colors being true. reading some of his specifics regarding color in both Thoth and 777 makes one believe that anything other than perfect would not have done at all!

and those early (circa 1969) decks were hideous! i have seen one that is almost like a sepia toned photocopy... very poor.
my teacher said that when she first started studying the Thoth deck, the only way to find it was to Zerox it from the book.
still, i would love to find some of those early editions, if only for their collectability.

as an interesting footnote...
as controversial a character as Crowley was during his lifetime, his death drew little attention, and his memory faded rather fast.
it wasn't until twenty years later, when the Beatles put his image on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, that he became a popular culture icon. two years later the Thoth deck was finally published.
funny the way history works, huh?

scheherazade Citizen Join Date: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Elysia Posts: 205	The Passion and the Adjustment In Thoth, I understand that these two cards are also known as "Strength" and "Justice," respectively. Did these two cards switch places in the order of the major arcana? If so, why did Thoth create his majors this way? __________________ Come away, O human child To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand For the world's more full of weeping Than you can understand. ~ The Stolen Child

21-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

lawguy51 Citizen Join Date: 16 Sep 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,208	It's actually called Lust, not Passion. You can see a picture of it here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/thoth/ top row on the right. LG51 __________________ Life is just a game You fly your paper plane There is no end.

22-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #3

scheherazade Citizen Join Date: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Elysia Posts: 205	Just asking objectively... The Thoth deck was created before the Rider-Waite? __________________ Come away, O human child To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand For the world's more full of weeping Than you can understand. ~ The Stolen Child

30-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

Emily Citizen Join Date: 14 Feb 2002 Location: England Posts: 6,566	Also the artwork of the Thoth was used to illustrate 'The book of Thoth' first published in 1944 and wasn't released as a deck until 1969, after Aleister Crowley's death in 1947. I always wonder what he and Lady Frieda would have made of the finished deck , would the colours and size have been right - would they have liked the sickly green colour of one version of the deck lol __________________ # # Emily # # ----------------------------------- A good student never stops learning Having fun with the Liber T

30-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #8

Alobar Citizen Join Date: 14 Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 121	i'm sure that AC would have insisted upon the colors being true. reading some of his specifics regarding color in both Thoth and 777 makes one believe that anything other than perfect would not have done at all! and those early (circa 1969) decks were hideous! i have seen one that is almost like a sepia toned photocopy... very poor. my teacher said that when she first started studying the Thoth deck, the only way to find it was to Zerox it from the book. still, i would love to find some of those early editions, if only for their collectability. as an interesting footnote... as controversial a character as Crowley was during his lifetime, his death drew little attention, and his memory faded rather fast. it wasn't until twenty years later, when the Beatles put his image on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, that he became a popular culture icon. two years later the Thoth deck was finally published. funny the way history works, huh? __________________ Witchcraft celebrates Pale Hecate's offerings ~ Shakespeare

30-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #10

isthmus nekoi Citizen Join Date: 14 Aug 2001 Location: toronto, canada Posts: 2,523	Actually, Justice is originally 8, Strength 11. They are switched in the Rider Waite deck....

21-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Neophyte Resident Join Date: 26 Sep 2003 Location: New York Posts: 4	This topic has been a constant source of confusion for me. After reading Crowley's description of why a switch was necessary, I did a spread of the cards in the form of the astrological wheel with all the cards in their proper sign. Crowley states something about the symmetry of the switch (the Lust/Adjustment and Emperor/Star switch), and at first I was lookng for a numerological symmetry, but could not arrive at one. Then I noticed that both switches that took place were opposite each other on the wheel. The Lust/Adjustment is around Virgo and The Star/Emperor switch is around Pisces. Is this the basis of Crowley's statement of symmetry? I would assume so, but I doubt it somewhat because of the seeming simplicty of it.

23-10-2003	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

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