Always Wondering
Knitpicking. 
Now you all know where I buy my yarn.
Thanks closrapexa.
Now he's got me curious.
AW
Now you all know where I buy my yarn.Thanks closrapexa.
Now he's got me curious.
AW
the purpose of the Thoth deck
rachelcat
I’ve been thinking about this off and on for a while, so I hope what I say makes sense.
Magic(k) probably isn’t a good idea from a Buddhist point of view.
Karma means every action we take has a reaction. Usually unskillful actions have painful reactions, and skillful, loving actions have pleasant reactions. But, unless we’re fully enlightened bodhisattvas, we’re all still subject to the law of unintended consequences.
I’m thinking (and I think this is what Crowley was saying about black magic in the quotes above) that using spiritual means to accomplish material actions (magic) is especially subject to both unskillful mind states and the law of unintended consequences, which might bring down more than the normal share of painful reactions. Spiritual means/powers would probably be better used to develop oneself spiritually, maybe getting a little closer to that whole enlightenment thing. (But then you have to beware of spiritual materialism, a desire to achieve a spiritual goal for your own satisfaction and glory (or something).)
I’m also not interested in magic from a practical point of view. Trying to affect situations through spiritual power when practical or physical means would work seems inefficient! And if ones magical attempts don’t work as desired or fail completely, the practitioner has put herself in a situation of spiritual and material failure. “I must have done something wrong. I’m not good enough, or spiritually strong enough, or whatever, to make this work.” I’m thinking dependence on practical means would give the practitioner a better chance at correcting his mistakes and trying again.
I have no problem with people using magic, and I understand that it’s spiritual path for some, but I’m pretty sure it just doesn’t fit in with my attitudes and life.
As for tarot and divination, I don’t consider that magic. I’m just using tools to get news I can use from within myself (whether that within is my subconscious or Buddha nature or HGA or something else). Searching for truth for myself or for others can’t be black magic. Or am I just kidding myself with this distinction? . . .
Magic(k) probably isn’t a good idea from a Buddhist point of view.
Karma means every action we take has a reaction. Usually unskillful actions have painful reactions, and skillful, loving actions have pleasant reactions. But, unless we’re fully enlightened bodhisattvas, we’re all still subject to the law of unintended consequences.
I’m thinking (and I think this is what Crowley was saying about black magic in the quotes above) that using spiritual means to accomplish material actions (magic) is especially subject to both unskillful mind states and the law of unintended consequences, which might bring down more than the normal share of painful reactions. Spiritual means/powers would probably be better used to develop oneself spiritually, maybe getting a little closer to that whole enlightenment thing. (But then you have to beware of spiritual materialism, a desire to achieve a spiritual goal for your own satisfaction and glory (or something).)
I’m also not interested in magic from a practical point of view. Trying to affect situations through spiritual power when practical or physical means would work seems inefficient! And if ones magical attempts don’t work as desired or fail completely, the practitioner has put herself in a situation of spiritual and material failure. “I must have done something wrong. I’m not good enough, or spiritually strong enough, or whatever, to make this work.” I’m thinking dependence on practical means would give the practitioner a better chance at correcting his mistakes and trying again.
I have no problem with people using magic, and I understand that it’s spiritual path for some, but I’m pretty sure it just doesn’t fit in with my attitudes and life.
As for tarot and divination, I don’t consider that magic. I’m just using tools to get news I can use from within myself (whether that within is my subconscious or Buddha nature or HGA or something else). Searching for truth for myself or for others can’t be black magic. Or am I just kidding myself with this distinction? . . .
Carla
Off topic, but I always thought it was 'nitpicking' -- as in lice. It's a lot more fiddly I'd think to pick nits than to pick knitting. In fact, it actually is spelled nitpicking. Try googling it. Sorry to derail! (It shows my propensity for nitpicking. ha)
Always Wondering
Thoughtful post. I don't think we are as far apart as it seems.
Makes sense to me. I'm thinking so too.
Unless one sees all of life magick/spiritual, including the practical and the physical.
But I think Crowley saw all life as magick.
I had a bit of a guru when I was younger. She introduced me to the Thoth. She did lovely readings and helped me set boundries with my children and hubby, taught me some breathing techniques and a bit of yoga. She was a beautiful, well meaning woman. Then one day she got it into her head that I would not be happy unless I left my husband. After a few months of this I left her instead. It was a sad and confusing time for me. She had helped me identify with my Sag. sun while we both remained ignorant of my Cancer assendant. There was no way, understanding myself now, that I would pick a guru over my husband.
I think that is the well meaning black magick Crowley is talking about. Had I had a different nature I might have very well left him under her "guidance". In the end she felt she knew better than me about my own life. She was just as saddened and confused as I was. SHE would not be happy until I left my husband.
AW
Always Wondering
Yes. In America there is a yarn store named KnitPicks. I had just gotten the catalouge in the mail.
But stick around. I will give you plently of creative spelling you can nit pick over.
Just ask LRichard. AW
Richard
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." [Aleister Crowley: Magic in Theory and Practice]. This does not preclude the use of brute force, provided that it is "in conformity with Will."
Aeon418
That all depends on what you think Magick is. Here's Crowley's definition:
http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_01.html
I believe there's little you will find objectionable, even from a Buddhist point of view.
ravenest
.
Buddhists practice magic most assuredly! Especially tantric schools of Buddhism. They are not shy of 'bell, book and candle', particularly Tibetan varieties. They have magical daggers, bells, wands, bowls, ever see a Buddhist set of magical weapons? Phenomenal ,,, some designed to subdue demons physically ... a good 'demon queller' set is awesome to behold
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Old-Nepal-Tibet-Five-Buddhist-Bronze-Ritual-Implement-Tool-Set-/00/s/Mzc1WDUwMA==/z/J74AAOxyA4ZRJjGx/$T2eC16FHJGQE9noMZKC!BRJjG)eDdg~~60_35.JPG
- the nastier the demon - the longer the handles.
They have equivalents of the main branches of magick; Knowledge, Will, Acts of Worship, Union by Love, Ordeals, The Invocations, The Acts of Service, etc. Buddhism practices, invocation, evocation and a whole range of magical activities.
One of the differences is it is masked from most Buddhists, they think they don’t do it. Carrying a relic ... or giving it significance through veneration ( v. popular in Buddhism) is an act of magic. They don’t touch the magical implements though. usually only the Priests (or Lamas).
... here we go ...
Actually .... that’s a pretty good definition
Wonderfully put! Yes, and that has been a constant theme throughout magic for .... ever.
Remember the monkey's paw? The 3 wishes.
[ An elderly couple gets 3 wishes.
1. Lots of money - son dies in car accident they get insurance.
2. Forget the money, we want our son back with us - son turns up from the grave half dead and rotten and ripped apart from the car accident.
3. Horror, send it away! - Son and money gone ... out of wishes. ]
The Sorcerer’s apprentice.
Well, that's life in general isn’t it? It doesn’t just relate to magic/k. In magic and ordinary life (if one makes a distinction )... magical training is to address that very issue ... especially in the area of ' unskilful mind states'. The study of magick should HELP this process;
16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.
17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?
[Liber Librae ]
That IS what magick is all about, Crowley makes a clear distinction with this ... that’s why he added the 'k' to magick.
That's the 'black magick' he talks about and the 'black brothers'.
Yes, that is the whole point of studying magick ... learning how to apply appropriate skill in appropriate form and situation. In Crowley’s intro to Liber Abba - 'Book 4, Magick' he explains much of this.
Another story ... a student gets bored with the master ... not enough siddhis (physical 'magical' apparitions) he wants to walk on the water and cross the river next to the masters house. Pointless says the master ... what for? The student leaves, finds a magical teacher, spends 10 years studying, returns, walks across the river to the masters house and says. 'What do you think of that then!'
The master replies, "I think you took 10 years to learn what most people pay the ferryman a penny for.'
Yes, it is a problem, especially with oaths ... when they fail.
True magick (and evolution .... and , again, life in general) should be a bit more like this formular:
Experiment, observe methods and results, tabulate results and effects, identify what did or didn’t work and efficiencies and failures, adapt accordingly and try again , continue process.
That 'adapt accordingly' and learning from mistakes seems to be the bit that is missing a lot of the time . Crowley’s system (and its not like ordinary magic) is based on 'scientific illuminism' and attempts to put scientific principles into mystical investigation.
From what I read of what you wrote, it fits in quiet well its just that maybe you haven't fully understood the difference between what you think magick is and what it is ... it isn’t magic ... actually the sensible comments you made would probably make you a good Thelemic magick practitioner ... again, it is outlined in Intro to Book 4.
No. you are not kidding yourself IMO , magick is doing the same thing; 'using tools to get news I can use from within myself'.
Crowley is sorta saying (if he was a fundy preacher) "Anyone that is not following the will of God is sinning" - He's just kicking a bit of arse there .... with comments like these.
One cant justify the search for a purpose as black magic if the finding and enactment of that purpose is not black magick.
Accomplishment (or enlightenment) are 2 stages that intertwine and continually unfold; the finding of the True Will and the enactment of the True Will. How can we do one without the other ... it is not expected that we are born with that enlightenment ... although some seem to be.
Buddhists practice magic most assuredly! Especially tantric schools of Buddhism. They are not shy of 'bell, book and candle', particularly Tibetan varieties. They have magical daggers, bells, wands, bowls, ever see a Buddhist set of magical weapons? Phenomenal ,,, some designed to subdue demons physically ... a good 'demon queller' set is awesome to behold
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Old-Nepal-Tibet-Five-Buddhist-Bronze-Ritual-Implement-Tool-Set-/00/s/Mzc1WDUwMA==/z/J74AAOxyA4ZRJjGx/$T2eC16FHJGQE9noMZKC!BRJjG)eDdg~~60_35.JPG
- the nastier the demon - the longer the handles.
They have equivalents of the main branches of magick; Knowledge, Will, Acts of Worship, Union by Love, Ordeals, The Invocations, The Acts of Service, etc. Buddhism practices, invocation, evocation and a whole range of magical activities.
One of the differences is it is masked from most Buddhists, they think they don’t do it. Carrying a relic ... or giving it significance through veneration ( v. popular in Buddhism) is an act of magic. They don’t touch the magical implements though. usually only the Priests (or Lamas).
... here we go ...Actually .... that’s a pretty good definition
Wonderfully put! Yes, and that has been a constant theme throughout magic for .... ever.
Remember the monkey's paw? The 3 wishes.
[ An elderly couple gets 3 wishes.
1. Lots of money - son dies in car accident they get insurance.
2. Forget the money, we want our son back with us - son turns up from the grave half dead and rotten and ripped apart from the car accident.
3. Horror, send it away! - Son and money gone ... out of wishes. ]
The Sorcerer’s apprentice.
Well, that's life in general isn’t it? It doesn’t just relate to magic/k. In magic and ordinary life (if one makes a distinction )... magical training is to address that very issue ... especially in the area of ' unskilful mind states'. The study of magick should HELP this process;
16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.
17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?
[Liber Librae ]
That IS what magick is all about, Crowley makes a clear distinction with this ... that’s why he added the 'k' to magick.
That's the 'black magick' he talks about and the 'black brothers'.
Yes, that is the whole point of studying magick ... learning how to apply appropriate skill in appropriate form and situation. In Crowley’s intro to Liber Abba - 'Book 4, Magick' he explains much of this.
Another story ... a student gets bored with the master ... not enough siddhis (physical 'magical' apparitions) he wants to walk on the water and cross the river next to the masters house. Pointless says the master ... what for? The student leaves, finds a magical teacher, spends 10 years studying, returns, walks across the river to the masters house and says. 'What do you think of that then!'
The master replies, "I think you took 10 years to learn what most people pay the ferryman a penny for.'
Yes, it is a problem, especially with oaths ... when they fail.
True magick (and evolution .... and , again, life in general) should be a bit more like this formular:
Experiment, observe methods and results, tabulate results and effects, identify what did or didn’t work and efficiencies and failures, adapt accordingly and try again , continue process.
That 'adapt accordingly' and learning from mistakes seems to be the bit that is missing a lot of the time
. Crowley’s system (and its not like ordinary magic) is based on 'scientific illuminism' and attempts to put scientific principles into mystical investigation.From what I read of what you wrote, it fits in quiet well
its just that maybe you haven't fully understood the difference between what you think magick is and what it is ... it isn’t magic ... actually the sensible comments you made would probably make you a good Thelemic magick practitioner ... again, it is outlined in Intro to Book 4. No. you are not kidding yourself IMO , magick is doing the same thing; 'using tools to get news I can use from within myself'.
Crowley is sorta saying (if he was a fundy preacher) "Anyone that is not following the will of God is sinning" - He's just kicking a bit of arse there .... with comments like these.
One cant justify the search for a purpose as black magic if the finding and enactment of that purpose is not black magick.
Accomplishment (or enlightenment) are 2 stages that intertwine and continually unfold; the finding of the True Will and the enactment of the True Will. How can we do one without the other ... it is not expected that we are born with that enlightenment ... although some seem to be.
ravenest
Yes. So if it is my will to grow healthy vegies, I will do it as best I can on the physical plane ... digging, weeding, etc but if I use my moon guide and bio-dynamic prepartaions 500 and 501 ... that is venturing into 'magick' ... but so in a sense is weeding ... especially if I do it at descending Moon last quarter.
To do some type of ritual and 'wave a wand over the garden' or to bury a Jupiter talisman in the ground ... and do nothing else ... IMO is not magick but idiocy and common magic and basically an attempt at a short-cut inspired by lazy human wish desires.
Those sort of things might work to change human conciousness ... but that is a different ball game and restricts the usage of the art from what Crowley intended, which is a VERY broad application of certain 'magical' principles.
Carla
How is doing your weeding during descending Moon last quarter different from doing a ritual and burying a Jupiter talisman? Why is one real magic and the other idiocy/common magic? (These are honest questions, I'm not getting at you.)
