Quite a stupid Question

Can someone plz tell me if RWS and thoth meanings are the same?

I cant really see much stuff from Thoth, everything seems to be so messy........ but i really would like to have a go.

Shapeshifter,

I'm not an expert on the Thoth by any means - I've got the deck but keep putting off my in-depth study of it in favour of others! My understanding is that they are similar but subtly different. However, I'm sure the many Thoth admirers and experts out there will put us both straight.

What I would say is - don't worry about the fact that you can't get much from the Thoth. I think that's why the RWS and its clones are so popular: it seems to be much easier for many of us to pick things up from them. It can be so much clearer when we've got a straight image of people doing things and interacting. The Thoth can seem very confusing. I have the de luxe version on order which ought to have clearer brighter colouring and I'm hoping that will help me with this deck. There is also a new book out which I believe Holmes has reviewed in the "Media" section which the jacket blurb said makes the Thoth accessible to all - you might want to see if Holmes agrees with them.


Edited to add: It's not a stupid question - you can ask anything at all and we'll do our best to answer.

From what I understand, there are 3 styles of tarot--the original marsailles, the Thoth & the Rider Waite. Each has clones, and the clones generally follow the deck that is standard for them, but there's variations all over the place. Most of the books you can find are done for the Rider Waite. To understand the Thoth, look for books specifically naming the Thoth deck in the title.

Shapeshifter said:

Can someone plz tell me if RWS and thoth meanings are the same?

Click to expand...

Shapeshifter,

Good question!

There are certainly differences in symbolism and philosophy between the RWS and Thoth cards.

Your question is related to divinatory meanings, so I'll deal with that. In my humble opinion, the divinatory meanings for the RWS cards and the DMs for the Thoth cards generally can, more often than not, be reconciled with each other via the divinatory meanings given in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's manuscripts, especially the GD manuscript _Book T_. This is because both Waite (of RWS fame) and Crowley were former members of the Golden Dawn. Of course, there are differences between RWS and Thoth DMs, mainly because of changes made by Crowley to the GD system as explained in Crowley's _Book of Thoth_; for example, some Thoth cards which are strong building blocks to Crowley's innovations, notably the Lust and Aeon cards, have stronger differences from their RWS and GD counterparts than as is the case for other Thoth cards.

That said, there are interesting and subtle/not so subtle differences between the RWS and Thoth decks, in terms of DMs, philosophy, symbolism, etc. Have fun exploring, and feel free to ask questions.

The GD's _Book T_ is a key and a link between the RWS and Thoth decks and probably the single most important document to understanding and reconciling aspects of Anglo-American tarot tradition. You can find it online at:

http://www.private.org.il/GD/Book-T.html

You can also find Crowley's book _Book of Thoth_ online if you use a good search engine.

Shapeshifter said:

Can someone plz tell me if RWS and thoth meanings are the same?

Click to expand...

NOT a stupid question at all! But a little difficult to answer.

To a certain degree, most of the card meanings are interchangeable. The visual ques are just quite different and abstract in Thoth. The VIII and XI cards in the majors are switched. In Thoth, VIII is Adjustment (Justice) and XI is Lust (Strength).

Throughout the Thoth deck, the same meanings are there as in RWS, but Thoth has a slightly different perspective and feel to it, like the difference between seeing a person's face head on and in profile.

Try doing a spread with Thoth and then laying out the same cards from your RWS. Study the cards that way for a while, and you'll start to see what the overlapping meanings and differences are.

Two books that have helped me with Thoth:
Key Words for the Crowley Tarot by Hajo Banzhaf & Brigitte Theler
Tarot: Mirror of the Soul by Gerd Ziegler

These books provide two different approaches. If you study both you should start to feel more grounded in the look and symbology of the Crowley-Thoth Tarot. I would recommend Crowley's writings as well, but I'm darned if I can understand them.

Nevada