dignities in the 15 card spread (??)

Greetings,

I've been trying to acknowledge the right way (if not the best way) to interpret the elemental diginities in the 15 card spread from the LWB. I've read the tutorials on Supertarot.co.uk but this issue is still not clear to me.

From what I've understood, the spread is divided in 5 sections of 3 cards where the side cards are modifiers affecting the center card, which supposely has bigger importance than the side cards.

That would address the center card dignification, but what about the side cards? Is their only purpose to modify the center card?
If not, how to address their dignification?

From this perspective, the spread would function almost like a 5 card spread (the center cards of each section) and the side cards would be there only to support the center card.

What can you tell me in regards to this? I'd be glad to know how you guys work the entire spread.

Peace & Love,
Aun

Hi aun ... Are you talking about the 15-card Cicero spread at http://www.supertarot.co.uk/spread/15car.htm ? If so, you're right: it is basically 5 main cards with 2 modifiers for each of those 5 cards.

At the risk of oversimplifying, in terms of E.D. analysis, you can analyze this 15-card spread like you would analyze 3-card spreads (per the method in Supertarot), five times over.

On the question of modifier cards, the following Thoth forum thread might be of some assistance:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18688

In terms of how the Golden Dawn approached dignities, it would appear that the modifier cards are not in themselves looked at to see if they're well dignified or ill dignified.

Here's my take:

(1) If the central card is well dignified (i.e., both modifiers are of connecting elements to the central card), then the central card would have a well-dignified meaning as would be ascribed to a well-dignified card in isolation (e.g., if the central card is the 7 of Cups, look at the variety of meanings that the GD ascribes in _Book T_ to a well-dignified 7 of Cups) but modified by the two modifiers which would have modifier meanings based on meanings of well-dignified modifier cards. Thus, make a short story sentence with those three cards.

(2) If the central card is ill dignified (i.e., both modifiers are of contrary elements to the central card), then the central card would have an ill-dignified meaning as would be ascribed to an ill-dignified card in isolation but modified by the two modifiers which would have modifier meanings based on meanings of ill-dignified modifier cards.

(3) Where the two modifiers are opposing elements to one other, then the two modifiers cancel each other out and would have no modifying effect on the central card at all; it would be as if the modifiers weren't there at all. In such case, the central card would be fairly strong, but its meaning would be short of a well-dignified meaning.

(4) Where one of the modifiers is of contrary element to the central card and the other modifier is of a connecting element, the central card would be strong, but short of having a well-dignified meaning. The modifiers would have their natural meaning as regards the modifying of the central card.

Study the GD's examples of triples and E.D.s in their tarot manuscripts. But after that, it's basically using your intuition. It's more an art than a science.

Best regards (and Feedback would be greatly appreciated),

rusty

P.S.: I've modified point (3) and added point (4).

Thanx Rusty Neon,

That was a great and very clarifying answer.

Now, if you allow me to extend my question a little further... ;-)

I think I have a pretty strong foundation on E.D. theory IF I think in terms of minor cards only... but what about the times when trumps come to play?

I understand their element is spirit, and also I understand that some have planet attributions, some have astrogical sign attributions.... how to combine them with the minor suits?

And also, if a trump comes as a modifier and a minor as the Principal (center) card... does it loose importance in the sake of the minor card?

Thanks in advance for your valuable insights....

Peace and Love,
Aun

Hi aun ... Is your take on modifying (minor arcana) cards similar to the one given in my first post above? I'm interested, for the purposes of discussion.

As regards major arcana, I don't give much distinction in importance between major and minor arcana. To me, all 78 cards are just as important. However, if I am to see major arcana as more significant than minor arcana, then, in the ED context, I'd only give major arcana their special significance where the major arcana card is the central card, rather than a modifier card. A modifier isn't more important just because the modifier is a major arcanum rather than a minor arcanum. A central card that's a major arcanum isn't less significant, merely because it's flanked by two minor arcana as modifiers. (Hmm, what if a minor arcana is flanked by two major arcana? I think that it should still be treated on the same footing as any other minor arcanum. However, that's interesting: Treat the central minor arcana card flanked by two major arcana as having the same importance as a major arcana card?)

To me personally, I see the major arcana as belonging not to a fifth element, but to one of the four elements (air, water, fire, earth) depending on GD astrological or modern day adapted new-planet GD astrological correspondences, and in the case of those majors that don't have astrological correspondences, I would use elemental correspondences.

Astrological correspondences can also play a part in the divinatory meanings of the cards. If a card has, say, an astrological correspondence of Pisces, the various Pisces "light" meanings can form a part of the card's basic and/or well-dignified meanings, as the case may be. And the various Pisces "shadow" meanings can form a part of the card's ill-dignified meanings.

What are the views of others on the list?

Hi Rusty Neon,

You are right, there is always an elemental attibution for each of the trumps, and that should be taken under consideration when you use this E.D. technique. Looking from this perspective we have a consistent E.D. system, and that is all you need for an accurate reading. I've seen many contradictory opinions on how to use this spread, but I'll stick with your suggestions, as they make total sense to me. I also agree with the astrological influences, although I haven't gone that far in my studies yet... I'm actually studying Duquette's Understanding Crowley's Thoth Tarot.

I just don't know if I agree with the fact that you dont give much distinction between the minors and majors, but thats your personal opinion, you must have strong reasons to believe so, and I totally respect it.

One other thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is, how does the divination meaning - and not the elemental influences - of the modifiers affect the interpretation of a quadrant (3 cards). I've seem some people using only their elemental attribution, totally disregarding their actual divination meanings. To me, the modifiers meanings are relevant, but only blending with the main card meanings. Does tat make sense? I'd like to know what you think about that as well...

All the best,
Aun

Aun said:

To me, the modifiers meanings are relevant, but only blending with the main card meanings.

Click to expand...

I agree. The modifiers help to tell the story (divinatory meaning) of the central card.

Great insight

I've been meaning to post the very same question asked by Aun for some days but procrastination got the better of me. Great insight by Rusty Neon ! Hats off !

Though, I am still a bit confused about how does one take major arcanum as modifiers. I mean, it is clear in various places the elemental attributes of various suits e.g. fire opposes water, earth is supportive to water and so on. But , -how- do we attribute the same meanings to the major arcana. Do they have associated signs as well ?

Regards
M

Hi abba ... Here are some links for GD astrological/element correspondences for the major arcana.

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/astro/attrib.htm
http://www.tarotmoon.com/articles/Elemental_Dignities/elemental_dignities.html (But note that GD assigns the element Fire to the Judgement card.)

P.S.: I've modified my first post in this thread a bit. See above.

Ok...

I'm fine with the 3 elemental trumps...

fool = air
hanged man = water
aeon = fire

...and the 12 zodiac sign related ones:

Aries - Emperor = fire
Taurus - Hierophant = earth
Gemini - Lovers = air
Cancer - Chariot = water
Leo - Lust = fire
Virgo - Hermit = earth
Libra - Adjustment = air
Scorpio - Death = water
Sagittarius - Art = fire
Capricorn - Devil = earth
Aquarius - Star = air
Pisces - Moon = water

but what are the elemental attributions of the planets?

Magician - Mercury
High Priestess - Moon
Empress - Venus
Fortune - Jupiter
Tower - Mars
Sun - Sun
World - Saturn

best regards,
Aun

Aun ... For elemental attributions of the planets, see the tarotmoon link I cited above.