The Language of the Birds

[Flornoy]

Originally posted by Rusty Neon




... Are there any examples of the use of the Language of the Birds in the Tarot de Marseille deck?

I haven't found any, in spite of having looked long and hard. The cards operativity, in the sense that they speak directly to the unconscious, remains a reality. It is above all the organisation of the colors, their mass and position, which is essential. In this sense, we can say that the tarot itself works as does a Language oif the Birds. On this level, the giant images (2meters 50 by 1 meter 20) I painted of the major arcana works especially well, permitting the interiorization of the image and the entry into a world in which magic functions to reveal the inner journey of the soul.

It seems that the Language, in use daily, depended on a cultural atmosphere, and once the sacred era had expired, the Language degenerated into mere plays on words.

Best wishes

JC Flornoy

[Namadev]

Originally posted by Flornoy
You might start by looking at the general history of Armenia (Cilicie was known as Little Armenia) and visiting the site in Turkey. Their society functioned in quadripartition, which I treat more completely on my website.

http://english.letarot.com/pages/29legende.html

There are also some maps and other information. A more complete rendering of the life of these expatriated fraternities (who were very glad to be and stay in their land of exile) is a fascinating project. I don't have the time at the moment, but will keep the idea in sight and would love to hear how you progress.

best wishes

JC Flornoy

Hi,

Two other references possible :
-one, not verified from Marie Aubert of the Vieux Musée de Marseille,
-the other from my essay "Origines et histoire du tarot".

Sorry but all is in French!


Alain

"Le jeu de Naïb semble avoir été transmis au XIVe siècle d'Orient en Italie par une famille d’Arméniens, daté précisément par la chronique de Jean de Collevuzzo : " En l’an 1379 fut introduit à Viterbe le jeu de cartes qui vient du pays des Sarrasins et s’appelle chez eux Naïb ". L’un des plus anciens jeux d'Europe, peut-être à l’origine destiné aux enfants, apparaît à Marseille dans les minutes du notaire Laurent Aycardi, en date du 30 avril 1381. Il relate l’histoire d’un dénommé Jacques Jean, en partance pour Alexandrie, contraint par deux amis de jurer devant notaire qu’il ne s’adonnera à aucun jeu, notamment celui du Naïb, durant toute la traversée sous peine d'acquitter une amende de quinze florins."

Marie AUBERT,
Conservateur du Musée du Vieux-Marseille

http://www.mairie-marseille.fr/vivre...es/musexp3.htm

I also wrote in 1997 about Léon V of Lusignan, the last king of Armenia who in his exil is said to have played cards with Valentine Visconti wife of Louis of Orléans, the brother of the king of France Charles VI.

"Léon V de Lusignan fut le dernier roi d'Arménie, petit royaume chrétien oriental allié des Latins et des Byzantins, qui tombera néanmoins sous les assauts des Mamelouks, malgré une résistance héroïque.
Est-ce que le jeu n'aurait pas été rapporté par Léon V de Lusignan?
Le Sultan des Mamelouks l'avait capturé d'abord en 1375 pour le déporter à Jérusalem puis au caire; il ne recouvre la liberté que sur l'intervention du Roi de Castille, Jean Ier, en 1382.
Charles Vi, roi de France, l'accueillera et le protègera.
Il mourra en 1393 sans avoir reçu l'aide escomptée des princes chrétiens (latins) pour reconquérir son royaume perdu : le Tarot n'aurait-il pas traduit les espérances du souverain déchu?"

Toutefois, cette hypothèse, pour brillante qu'elle soit, n'est qu'une conjecture. émise à l'origine par Elaine Doré et régine Desforges dans leur livre :
"Le tarot du point de croix" Editeur Stock/DMC"


Réferences :
Origines et histoire du tarot, pp38-39


Alain

[Gardener]

Namadev and M. Flournoy,

Thank you both so much for your suggestions. I am right now on vacation in Hawaii, so it will be a few more days before I can round up my francophone friends to translate for me, but I am really looking forward to the project. I think even just what you have given me so far will make a lovely start for a story. The most delectable thoughts are the encounter these people face with an alien culture, and how that encounter shapes their own religious and spiritual practices. And as I dig up more information, I will be able to round it out with reality - or as close as history comes to reality.

Wonderful conversations we encounter, here on Aeclectic.

[firemaiden]

Originally posted by Namadev

"Le jeu de Naïb semble avoir été transmis au XIVe siècle d'Orient en Italie par une famille d’Arméniens, daté précisément par la chronique de Jean de Collevuzzo : " En l’an 1379 fut introduit à Viterbe le jeu de cartes qui vient du pays des Sarrasins et s’appelle chez eux Naïb ". L’un des plus anciens jeux d'Europe, peut-être à l’origine destiné aux enfants, apparaît à Marseille dans les minutes du notaire Laurent Aycardi, en date du 30 avril 1381. Il relate l’histoire d’un dénommé Jacques Jean, en partance pour Alexandrie, contraint par deux amis de jurer devant notaire qu’il ne s’adonnera à aucun jeu, notamment celui du Naïb, durant toute la traversée sous peine d'acquitter une amende de quinze florins."

translation:
The Naïb decks seem to have been brought from the Orient to Italy by a family of Armenians, precisely dated by the account of Jean de Collevuzzo: "In the year 1379 the card game called "Naïb", which comes from the land of the Sarrasins, was introduced in Viterbe." One of the oldest games in Europe, perhaps originally intended for children, appeared in Marseilles in the minutes (notes) of notary Laurent Aucardi on April 30, 1381. He tells the story of a man named Jacques Jean, on his way to Alexandria, who was forced to swear in front of a notary, that he would not stoop to play ing any games, especially not Naïb, during the entire trip, under penalty of 15 florins. "

"Léon V de Lusignan fut le dernier roi d'Arménie, petit royaume chrétien oriental allié des Latins et des Byzantins, qui tombera néanmoins sous les assauts des Mamelouks, malgré une résistance héroïque. Est-ce que le jeu n'aurait pas été rapporté par Léon V de Lusignan?

Le Sultan des Mamelouks l'avait capturé d'abord en 1375 pour le déporter à Jérusalem puis au caire; il ne recouvre la liberté que sur l'intervention du Roi de Castille, Jean Ier, en 1382. Charles Vi, roi de France, l'accueillera et le protègera.

Il mourra en 1393 sans avoir reçu l'aide escomptée des princes chrétiens (latins) pour reconquérir son royaume perdu : le Tarot n'aurait-il pas traduit les espérances du souverain déchu?"

Toutefois, cette hypothèse, pour brillante qu'elle soit, n'est qu'une conjecture. émise à l'origine par Elaine Doré et régine Desforges dans leur livre :
"Le tarot du point de croix" Editeur Stock/DMC"

Réferences :
Origines et histoire du tarot, pp38-39

translation:
Léon V of Lusignan was the last king of Armenia, small eastern christian kingdom allied to the Latins and the Byzantines, who nevertheless fell to the Mamelouk onslaught, despite a heroic resistance. Is it possible that the deck could have been brought by Léon V of Lusignan?

The Mamelouk Sultan first captured him in 1379 and deported him to Jerusalem, then to Cairo; he only regained his freedom through the intervention of the King of Castille, Juan I, in 1382. Charles VI, King of France welcomed and protected him.

He died in 1392 without ever having received the assistance of the Christian (Latin) princes to reconquer his lost kingdom. Might the tarot translate the hopes of the disappointed king?

Brilliant as this hypothesis is, nevertheless, it is nothing but conjecture, first suggested by Elaine Doré and Régine Desforges in their book "Le Tarot du point de Croix" ...

[firemaiden]

Perhaps there is a better word to translate "Latin"?

[jmd]

rather quick on-the-spot translation - corrections welcome and appreciated!

• The Game of Naïb appears to have been transmitted in the 14th century from the East to Italy by an Armenian family, precisely dated by an entry of John of Collevuzzo: 'in the year 1379 was introduced at Viterbo a game of cards from a Sarracin country which is named in their land Naïb'. One of the oldest games in Europe, and perhaps intended for children, is found in Marseilles in minutes dated 30th April 1381 by the clerk Larent Aycardi. He relates the story of a person named Jacques Jean, headed for Alexandria, forced by two friends to swear before the clerk that he would not give himself over to any game, notably/especially that of Naïb, for the whole journey, under pain of being fined the sum of fifteen florins.
  
  Marie AUBERT,
  [?]Curator[?] of the Museum of [Old/]Vieux-Marseille

Alain's 1997 text (Origines et histoire du tarot pp38-39) about Leo V:

• Leo V of Lusigna was the final Armenian king who, despite an heroic resistance, finally fell under Mamluk assaults - Armenia was a small Christian land allied to both the Roman and Byzantine empires. [poor translation!]
  
  Could not the game(/deck) have possibly been brought back [towards Italy ?] by Leo V?
  
  The Mamluk Sultan had first captured him in 1375 & was to send him to Cairo via Jerusalem. He gained freedom only following the intervention of John 1st, the King of Castille, in 1382.
  
  Charles VI, King of France, subsequently welcomed and protected him. He nonetheless died in 1393 without having received the promised assistance from the (Roman) Christian princes in re-conquering his lost kingdom: could the Tarot not have presented the hopes of the deposed sovereign?
  
  Still, this theory, however possibly brilliant, is but conjecture, stemming from Elaine Doré & Régine Desforges book Le Tarot du Point de Croix.

...leaves much to be read!

On a similar note, I have at various times tried to purchase your book, but have yet been unable - any suggestions (Amazon.fr doesn't seem to offer it, nor the fnac!)

[jmd]

...and what do I see??? a better translation as I worked on mine!

all the better for readers to get a fuller sense of both!

Thanks, firemaiden!

[Diana]

(I was just coming over here to do the translation! No need now with two versions, each as perfect as each other.)

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally posted by firemaiden
Perhaps there is a better word to translate "Latin"?

"Latin" is the correct term - distinguishing the western Church from the "Greek" eastern church. In the middle ages, the two parties are always referred to as the Latins and the Greeks.

Ross

[Namadev]

Hi,

Thanks to all the "benevol" translations and translators!
Fantastic...

When I write that the hypothesis is a mere "conjecture", I mean that we lack verified data about this topic : were Valentine Visconti, Charles d'Orléans, Charles VI and Leo V playing "cards" or was there some trumps imagery?
Did they really play "cards" or if this a historical legend?
Second hand references from modern literary sources are contradictory.
So, even if this information could be true and in this case very interesting because this would mean that some trumps linked to a kind of pips cards were in use in France prior to the 1400, we must consider until further inquiry this data as unverified and uncertain.

Alain