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Citizen
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 4,621
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Quote:
Kwaw Last edited by kwaw; 08-02-2004 at 08:18. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #51 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,339
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Quote:
my double used words "how it was meant" in my personal article were clearly related to two objects, one the early alphabet and the other the Sepher Yetzirah, they were not discussing, what "history" generally is or how it should be seen. I think, this is understandable in my sentence, cited by you: "Your theme is different than mine. I'm interested in the understanding of the early alphabet, "how it was meant" and in the Sepher Yetzirah, also "how it was meant", not in the later fiction about it." With my words I declare my interests to see and to acknowledge the early alphabet itself and the Sepher Yetzirah independent from their "historical success" and independent from my personal preferences, if I do like this success or not and independent from anybody else personal preferences regarding the theme and the follow up in history. I think, this is expression of natural fairness against objects in history and documents, to understand them as good as possible with the eyes of their time, when they were innocent and new and not already famous and not generally viewed out of the idealizations builded cause of their successes, which often happened centuries after and were not in the moment of their creation. Kwaw, this is a methode when researching something, and it is a fair methode. It's not generally dismissive against anything, what happened after. However, the results of a research naturally can produce the insight, that somebody in the younger past talked nonsense about the object in the older past. Actually this somebody might perceive the result as dismissive against his own theories. But that's "result of research" and a second pair of shoes. As researcher one has to stand such things. Either you believe you've something to say or not. __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk" |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #52 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 4,621
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Quote:
Kwaw Last edited by kwaw; 09-02-2004 at 03:39. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #53 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,339
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Quote:
An assumed transmission from other words in Phoenecian context to Hebrew context is more unsecure, although we've for instance the example, that Latin words also bewared their form in different languages with only small changes. Aleph is the "ox" and as the condition is given, that this indicates in Phoenician context the highest god "El", this is rather sufficient (I think, it's clear that EL or AL ... (-eph) makes no difference - the difference E/A should be only in our language, not in theirs). __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk" |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #54 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 29 Dec 2003
Location: Nr. Ephesus, Turkey
Posts: 4,621
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Quote:
???? Kwaw |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #55 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,364
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Quote:
It must be the same in Hebrew. As a simple noun, "ox", it isn't in Syriac either. Ross __________________ ΑΓΕΩΜΕΤΡΗΤΟΣ ΜΗΔΕΙΣ ΕΙΣΙΤΩ Trionfi http://trionfi.com Tarot Essays http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #56 |
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fourhares
Join Date: 05 Aug 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,502
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From some of the Kabalistic work I did a number of years ago, it was also my understanding that the 'Ox' part had to do with the trainability of the animal - its domestication. In another post (I posted a year ago today - Hebrew Letters - Alef/Aleph), I also make mention of the meaning of this letter as teacher or leader. One of the aspects of importance of Alef and the domesticated Ox is that they both lead a trail. In the case of the Ox, furrows are made in which are sown the seeds to germinate. Writing with letters is somewhat similar, in that each letter, as a seed, is 'planted' in the furrow of the line. That which heads it is Alef. Of course, this only exegetes (or is a Midrash on) the letter Alef as Ox after the fact, rather than gives grounds as to how this correlation emerged historically. I suppose that I too have been taken in by what other scholars have in the past written, copied from the opinions of yet other scholars on the matter, and so on down the line. It does seem, however, that the association between Alef and the Bull or Ox does pictorially make sense, and that perhaps looking at D'Alembert may give a clue - does he not also make that correlation? Being connected to the torso generally (& specifically the lungs according to the Sefer Yetzirah), and being also the silent letter which precedes sound, a metaphorical link to the Ox makes much sense (though not astrologically). I also wonder, though had not been able to find it when I searched much earlier, whether there is yet another word in a different language group (Ancient Greek / Ionian ?) which has a word which more properly links Alef-Alpha with the Ox - for then, such letter association would also make latter sense. Interestingly, by the way, there is some evidence that Alef is consistent with early Hieroglyphics representing an eagle, and here the Air association of the Sefer Yetzirah would make sense. Of course, I've kind of rambled in this post... |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #57 |
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Citizen
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,364
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Quote:
If the Psalter is really the oldest source for the list of names, then it must be the copies of the Psalter found at Qumran that are the oldest. I think Lamentations in Hebrew spells out the names too, so there is another old Hebrew source, also present at Qumran. This is all a far cry from 1500 b.c.e. (I am not calling into the question the weight to be accorded to tradition, and the fact that the Greek names are only explicable on the assumption of a common ancestor to Hebrew and Greek - all I want to know is the sources.) __________________ ΑΓΕΩΜΕΤΡΗΤΟΣ ΜΗΔΕΙΣ ΕΙΣΙΤΩ Trionfi http://trionfi.com Tarot Essays http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #58 |
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keeper of the toaster
Join Date: 07 Jun 2002
Location: Poitiers, France
Posts: 10,714
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I wrote: Quote:
It was the ox-head, it seems which helped to identify this proto-canaanite writing at Byblos in the first place: According to website Development of the Alphabet Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by firemaiden; 09-02-2004 at 20:54. |
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #59 |
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fourhares
Join Date: 05 Aug 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,502
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Thankyou firemaiden... just shows that the past couple of weeks I have but skimmed the posts in hastiness as I have been otherwise occupied... I should have read them all far more closely
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Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #60 |
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