Reading with Marseilles decks - Do you interpret the colours?

Rusty Neon

Reading with Marseilles decks -- Do you interpret the colours?

Ideally, I'd like to read the colours when using Conver-patterned Tarot de Marseille decks. However, I feel frustrated with the concept of doing so. This is because there are at least four different colourings around for Conver-patterned TdM decks:

(1) Conver circa 1760 (Bibliothèque nationale, Paris) - Héron deck

(1A) variants of #(1): Jodo-Camoin deck; Hadar deck

(2) Conver circa 1760 (Italian museum specimen) - Lo Scarabeo deck

(3) Conver 1760 plates, with 1880 colours - Camoin Bicentennial

(4) Paul Marteau 1930 (Grimaud deck and Dusserre deck)

(5)? The deck used by Joseph Maxwell in the late 19th century when writing his book on the TdM. (Note: As I don't have Maxwell's book, I've only got small bits of information from people, and it seems that he used a different deck. Any help would be appreciated.)

Virtually all the TdM books which I own focus on the Marteau colours. I would feel at least a bit better about picking one single deck as my colour deck if those books focused on the colours of an early Conver deck like the Héron reproduction or like the Lo Scarabeo reproduction. Héron is probably the more universal, in that its colours are basically the same as those in the Jodo-Camoin and the Hadar decks. On the other hand, since I have the books, I'm tempted to use the Marteau colours (even though they're not the earliest Conver colours).

And to make choices more different, there are colouring differences, even among the two earliest Conver decks (Héron deck vs. LS deck).

I like to use a variety of Conver-patterned decks and wouldn't want to use different card interpretations from deck to deck, resulting from the distinctive colouring of the particular reading deck used.

I'm wondering how the rest of you who use a variety of Conver-patterned decks deal with the reading and interpretion of colours. So far, I've been tempted not to read colours at all when interpreting cards from Conver-patterned decks. However, it seems that, in so doing, I'm neglecting a big feature of each deck. After all, the colours are there, staring at me in the face.
 

jmd

Personally, I only make use of colour in readings 'in the moment' - in the same way that two different card figures looking at each other may be meaningful, but studied outside of the moment perhaps not as useful.

As an example, red may be depicted in different parts on the Bateleur depending on the Marseille deck - does this red, however, reflect what Marteau says red reflects?

Here is where both general colour symbology, but also the sense for the overall image, may be variously interpreted by each of us.

Certainly, red may bring to mind martian qualities, but also recall blood, will, Leo, Aries, Life, etc. If on the right leg, again, this may be interpreted as on the active (right) willed (leg) part of the human anatomy... but how, also, does the image as a whole balance out this red-ness?

Just some reflections on this question which has been, for myself, and for the same reasons you mention, somewhat more inconsistent in their clarity.

I strongly suspect that whereas the image details were deemed, in many ways, iconographically important, the colour-symbolism was left far more up to the sense the artist had for the 'being' of the card.
 

Alexandre LeMat

For myself, I use the colour in the Marseille deck tow different ways.

First, to teach, learn and meditate the major arcane, I like to use a very simple but effective code of colour :

Red symbolise material force

Blue symbolise spiritual force

Green symbolise vital force

Black symbolise transformation force

Skin colour symbolise human conscinecousness force

It is particulary effective with the deck of Kris Hadar.

Example, I like to learn the symbol of La Papesse (2) with her blue coat and red under shirt. It is easyly understandable that something very concrete is develloping (red) in the the meditation (blue) of this women. But for the moment, no one is allowed to know what is it exactly. You can only have the intuition.

Second, to make a reading, I like to use the colour in a more psychic way. After I made the basic reading, I will let me go on the detail and the colour of the card to feel some events or clue to go deeply in the emotion of the person.At this time, I can even let the traditional code away if I feel that I have to do this.

For your question about the different deck of Conver, I think that the most important specialist of this deck Alain Bocherprefer the Héron deck edition. Non one have the truth for sure but this man dedicate his life to this deck and he his surely a good counsellor for this particular aspect of the Tarot.

My opinion is that you must choose the deck that you feel comfortable with and work with it. However, the Marteau deck is more a technology dependant deck than the others. The use of only three basic color are the result of the technology of the time more than a spiritual code.

Me, I prefer to use the Hadar deck because I'm more comfortable with my little simple but effective code ;-)

Friendly,
Alexandre
 

Lee

Thank you very much for posting your color code, Alexandre! I'm going to experiment with it with my Hadar deck.

-- Lee
 

Rusty Neon

Alexandre LeMat said:
My opinion is that you must choose the deck that you feel comfortable with and work with it. However, the Marteau deck is more a technology dependant deck than the others. The use of only three basic color are the result of the technology of the time more than a spiritual code.

Me, I prefer to use the Hadar deck because I'm more comfortable with my little simple but effective code ;-)

Salut Alexandre ... Welcome to this forum! It's always great to see other TdM enthusiasts. I look forward to your future posts.

(1) Have you tried using your Hadar colour code on the Héron and Jodo-Camoin decks? It may work on those decks too, as they have colour employment essentially the same as Hadar's deck.

(2) You have mentioned that the Marteau deck uses three basic colours as a result of technology. While the Conver deck of circa 1880 was, for technology reasons, published by Camoin with only 4 colours the Marteau deck has 7 colours, although you're right that some of those colours are used more often throughout the Marteau deck than others.

As used in his book _Le Tarot de Marseille_, Marteau's colour code has a code for all 7 of those colours. (Various of the colour attributions may be different from yours, e.g., black.)

BLUE - the spiritual
RED - matter, the material
YELLOW - divine and human intelligence
FLESH - the vital; the animal; the physical
BLACK - imperfections; obstacles; concentration of forces; inertia of matter
WHITE - luminosity; light; 'active richness'; flourishing; harmony; impersonal
GREEN - vital energies

However, you do raise the interesting question as to whether Marteau's deck use of a limited number of those 7 colours more prominently rather than all 7 colours more frequently throughout is due to technology reasons.
 

Alexandre LeMat

Rusty Neon said:
[(1) Have you tried using your Hadar colour code on the Héron and Jodo-Camoin decks? It may work on those decks too, as they have colour employment essentially the same as Hadar's deck.

I try tu use it on the Heron but not on the Camoin-Jodo because I don't have this deck. I see it on the web but something don't please me with it. I can't tell you exactly wath...

I have good result on the Heron but it seem to be a little more deeper than this simple code. I think that the Heron have a precise philosophic code.

(2) You have mentioned that the Marteau deck uses three basic colours as a result of technology. While the Conver deck of circa 1880 was, for technology reasons, published by Camoin with only 4 colours the Marteau deck has 7 colours, although you're right that some of those colours are used more often throughout the Marteau deck than others.

First, I precise that I talked about three colour and your right, I must be talking about 3 principal colours.

But if you watch the evolution of the printign technology, you'll see that Paul Marteau create his deck by making some compromise on the quantity about the colour that he want originaly because of the technology. I'll try to find where I read this information.

However, you do raise the interesting question as to whether Marteau's deck use of a limited number of those 7 colours more prominently rather than all 7 colours more frequently throughout is due to technology reasons. [/B]

Friendly,
Alexandre
 

Diana

I tend not to interpret the colours with the Major Arcana. This could be though because I've kind of "integrated" them and don't pay so much attention anymore.

However, I pay attention to them when I read the Minors. And my interpretation would go along the lines of Alexandre LeMat's interpretations.
 

MeeWah

Joseph Maxwell in his book "The Tarot" states:

"Colour is as meaningful as the numerical aspect...".

These are listed in his order:

White: purity, absence of ego.
Yellow: spirit, animation, intelligence.
Blue: instinctive desire, will, yearning.
Red: creative, generative, formative energy.
Green: life, life force.
Black: the vanities of the world of appearances, the illusion of material phenomena.

He further states the colour Orange or flesh colour to be used for the body, for animals & for matter except in card number VII where the horses are blue.

His discussion of the individual cards include their description & refers to the colours used, such as in the apparel of the figures; the colours used in the pip cards also.

Perhaps from those descriptions, it can be determined what edition of Tarot of Marseilles he used?

He mentions various editions by name. Also his conclusion that "the correct version...was designed between 1475 & 1550 in Southern Germany, and re-drawn in Franche-Comte in 1760"; however, there does not seem to be a direct reference to the deck he used for his descriptions.

Edited to add: I am not very familiar with the Marseilles tradition so may have missed something regarding whatever edition he based his book.
 

La Force

Colors Marseilles decks

I am curious as to what Light blue means in the conver decks?
 

punchinella

I am curious as to what Light blue means in the conver decks?
edit--nevermind (I had always sort of assumed that the pale color resulted from fading over time, but this assumption is wrong since I went to check Heron and found two distinct shades of blue, not counting that very dark color which gets restored as green :| )

An interesting thread on the subject can be found here.