The Metro-Sexual Tarot VS The Gay Tarot...

ncefafn said:

Dude, good way to attract customers!

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I have to agree with ncefafn. If your intention is to attract customers to your tarot deck, showing yourself to be thin-skinned and incapable of accepting criticism is the wrong way to go about it. Also, using the signature area to post a link to your website is not accepted here. It seems apparent that you haven't read the conspicuously posted forum rules, so I would suggest that you do so, paying particular attention to the sections on advertising and flaming.

I myself haven't looked at your tarot deck, so I am not prepared to make any statements about it. I welcome you to Aeclectic, and I'm sorry that you've apparently gotten off to a rocky start. I hope that you will give your fellow members a chance to get acquainted with you and your work. Since you have published decks, the deck creator's forum would probably be of great interest to you. There are people here that could probably benefit from your experience in this field, since there are many aspiring deck creators at Aeclectic.

Again, welcome to Aeclectic Tarot.


Bob

Remember, you did not invent tarot, it is a symbolic system that has existed for hundreds of years. By working on your own version of tarot your work will be compared to other decks. Your work will be viewed by some as as an insult to tarot, and by others as a good bit of harmless fun. There is no one truth on the matter.

Disconnected

"I have to agree with ncefafn. If your intention is to attract customers to your tarot deck, showing yourself to be thin-skinned and incapable of accepting criticism is the wrong way to go about it. Also, using the signature area to post a link to your website is not accepted here. It seems apparent that you haven't read the conspicuously posted forum rules, so I would suggest that you do so, paying particular attention to the sections on advertising and flaming."

Okay, point number one: THE DECK IS NOT FOR SALE. In fact, the only place it exists is on the ether of the Internet. It's a pet project. I don't have a publishing deal. So trying to besmirch me with commercial motives doesn't wash.

Point number two: I posted no link to the tarot site. I posted the best .sig I have, which is my name with a "www" and a ".com" on either side. The site contains no commercial products, direct links to commercial products, advertisements or e-commerce devices of any kind. So you're out to lunch on that one, too.

So, if you were attempting a critique or a rebuke, you didn't succeed.

And good luck buying a copy of the Metrosexual Tarot. If you find one out there, let me know, would you?

www.sincerely.com,

www.justprovingapoint.com

Heh.

Really, I'm out of here.

It seems this deck is a social & cultural commentary of sorts.

As Tarot is subjective, the design & other features of any one deck will not appeal to all--& even should not.

As a work-in-progress & without knowledge of the creator's view, intent or otherwise, not fair to the creator to pass judgement out of hand. Were all such deck designers accorded the same instead of encouragement, we would not see any here & possibly even less decks.

Well....I'm sorry Betteryeti, I'm afraid that what you got on this thread is people's gut opinions of the deck, if nothing else. There's everything from newbies to professional readers here, and some of what they bring up is valid from a reader's perspective, as well as from social observations. They're not doing a full blown critique (which you can get at several sites if you want them).

You're going to have to take the comments as they are, because this is only a small portion of the people who look at the deck (or any deck) and make comments (good or bad) at what they see or think they see. Lots of people can go to a site & look at something, but unless you're handing a deck to someone & asking for feedback, this is pretty much the only way TO get feedback. Consider that they didn't know you were here till you spoke up--what was posted here was how people felt about the deck, so this is how the deck is affecting some people. Not everyone is going to love everything, no question. You need to look at this as honest reactions from the public--for good or bad. It's better than paying someone to give you feedback.

One thing most seem to be agreeing on is that the images and/or meanings don't go deep enough.

(I loved the Firewall card in the Silicon Valley deck--even bought one of them for my brother who works for IBM in their design department).

Betteryeti,

I have a number of points I would like to address.

Firstly, I should clear up this issue:-

***Centaur writes,
"The Stylist: 'The High Priestess of Style' Is it just me or does she look like a psycho brandishing a hairdryer?"
She's my partner. She's a Ph.D candidate in English Lit at an Ivy.***

If you look closely at that photograph, the woman is holding a hairdryer as though it were a gun, and her figure is placed inbetween an open-pair of scissors. Let me revert back to one of your other comments:-

***Breathe deeply, and say it slowly: Sense. Of. Humor.***

Yes. That is correct. I was making a joke re. the imagery on the card: psycho: gun: stylist: hairdryer, and the pose in which she was standing.

I also did not make any reference to her educational achievements, nor her intellectual capacity. It would appear that you are trying to infer that I was making some comment re. being a stylist and intelligence level. Please tell me in which part of my post I did this?

***And your hostility toward women is showing.***

Oh really? Where? Please post the relevant sections of text. I did not make any comments of that sort. Or are you trying to imply that gay-men are in some way hostile towards women? If so, then this is just thinly veiled homophobia on your part.

Now for your other points. I should add that I had to look very hard for these in amongst the anger so evident in your post. May I suggest that in future you wait until you are feeling in a better frame of mind before posting, or indeed handling any form of criticism. It is not advisable to go flying off the handle as it does not portray you in a very positive light.

Now, let me clear up something else. This particular section of the forum is called TAROT DECKS: for opinions of the thousands of different types and styles of tarot decks. The key word here is OPINIONS. Opinions can be good and bad. I think one could also call these opinions, 'criticisms'. And yes, you guessed it... criticisms can be good or bad. Now... if you browse this section for other decks which have received criticism you will find that you are not the only one. Some examples:-

Tarot of Marseille
Hanson-Roberts
Thoth

I could go on and on and on... almost every deck has positive and negative comments.

***Well, it just makes me exasperated. Why, you ask? Um, because EVERY SINGLE CARD IN MY MAJOR ARCANA (okay, sorry i went all caps on you for a second, but stay with me) contains an explicit, literal reference to its correspondent in the Ryder-Waite. Like, take The DJ: "he's the hierophant of hip." Get it? How about Prescriptions: "howling at the moon." The Moon. Get it? Do I need to be more explicit? Could you be any less observant?***

I think you misunderstand Lee. I think that he was merely making comments re. the card names, which in my opinion, do not relate to any of the traditional names of the major arcana. This is indeed a valid point. Remember, we are talking about opinions here.

***Want to talk about shallow? The shallowest thing I see here is the level of thought, the analysis, and the attention span.***

What is so shallow about comparing two different types of tarot-deck? Remember, that what we have said on this board has been justified in terms of our opinion. So... please explain?

***I've had several thousand visitors to the MST site by this point -- as well as several hundred thousand (and thousands of decks sold) of the Silicon Valley Tarot. Most everybody gets a big kick out of both of them. With the almost exclusive exception of "Tarot Experts."***

Is this why your response is so full of anger: because we do not like your deck? Again, it is inadvisable to post when one is so upset.

***2) Ethnography. "That aspect of cultural anthropology concerned with the descriptive documentation of living cultures." As in, this is supposed to be an innovative and creative re-framing of the Tarot: a lense through which to view living human cultures.***

I actually agree with this.

***Where did anybody get the idea that the Tarot was sacred, or that using it as a device to observe subculture is somehow a defacement? And where does anybody -- ANYBODY -- get off claiming proprietary knowledge to, and connection with, Tarot?***

Again, we are talking about opinions here. Most of us use tarot on a daily basis, and are quite serious about the study of it. This is what we do here. We discuss tarot, tarot-decks and other tarot-related issues. Oh, and if you browse the other forums, I am sure that you will find some threads relating to your questions. Just don't get angry when you don't find the answer you are looking for!

***Thanks to all of you who said nice things. Thanks to all of you who actually seem to be paying attention. Um, to things like popular culture. And the human condition. And thanks to all of you who seem permeable to things like change, and new ideas. I'm not sure you're in the majority in this forum. I'd love to be mistaken, so I'll keep my mind open.***

Oh. I see that in your mind because we do not like your deck then that makes us somehow closed-minded, ignorant to popular culture and the human-condition. Ridiculous.

***(like the guy who can't concede the point that "metrosexual" applies to STRAIGHT MEN. oops sorry caps again...)***

Yes. That was me. I do not claim to 'know' everything, and I was not aware of the term as used to describe straight men. Now, if you had actually read over these posts, you will have noticed that I did 'concede to the point that 'meterosexual' applies to straight men', and that we also reached the conclusion that if metrosexual is in some way defined as a straight man who acts like a gay man, then it does have some homosexual associations.

Again, I urge you to address these negative feelings when they next arise, nd make an attempt to calm yourself, as it only results in thoughtless outbursts which you may later regret. It also hinders your ability for clear, logical thought, and also may cause you to miss out on points crucial to the argument. I do hope that you manage to learn how to handle criticism in the future. I can only imagine your response to an actual deck review or article if this is the way you react to comments on a tarot forum.

Now, I am going to get my non-meterosexual ass out of here.

C

Hi,

First, I think it is normal that Betteryeti got angry and defensive considering that most of the posts were bad critics about his deck.

I got once again addicted to the forum when i noticed last night that instead of sleeping i was thinking about this thread and that i should write "come on guys, cool down, it's just a deck, an artist's point of view and i'm sure the main point of it is just having a laugh, not offending anybody". It was before i saw that Betteryeti jumped into the discussion...

I honestly think all of this is getting out of proportion. On internet, critics are easy and discussion get passionnated, there is no body language or spontaneity here so the worst can happen without you noticing it. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. And you are always someone else's joke, sometimes it's a good joke that make you laugh too, sometimes they laugh alone. Gotta accept it, that's human nature.

Now i'm out of here too and won't take part to this thread anymore ... Winter holiday!!! Peace brothers and sisters

Kissa
*has left the building*

Kissa said:

Hi,

First, I think it is normal that Betteryeti got angry and defensive considering that most of the posts were bad critics about his deck. <snip> I honestly think all of this is getting out of proportion. On internet, critics are easy and discussion get passionnated, there is no body language or spontaneity here so the worst can happen without you noticing it. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

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Okay, I just want to get this straight here (pardon the pun), so I know how to handle myself in this forum. It's all right to have an opinion, but it's not all right to express that opinion unless it's positive? I'm a writer, and I send out tons (well okay) pounds and pounds of submissions, and I get pounds and pounds of rejections. Does it make me feel bad? Yes. But I know that's the price I pay for being creative and having the guts to put my work out there.

In a controlled environment -- such as a writer's workshop or, let's say, the creator's forum here on Aeclectic -- you will get constructive criticism. "Oh, I don't like this" or "You could tweak that." However, outside of that controlled environment, I think you have to accept that some people are not going to like your work and <gasp> say that they don't like it. If you're lucky, they'll be specific in why they don't like it, and if you're smart, you'll take that into consideration without flying off the handle.

When did dissent become a dirty word?

Bemusedly,

Kim

I wasn't going to post again here, because everything I could have said has already been excellently addressed by others.

However, I would like to comment on the following from betteryeti's post:

betteryeti said:

"I think the Metrosexual Tarot would have been funnier if the author had correlated his Majors to standard tarot Majors. But it looks to me (unless I'm missing something) as if he just randomly chose 22 gay stereotypes and numbered them 0 to 21."

Well, it just makes me exasperated. Why, you ask? Um, because EVERY SINGLE CARD IN MY MAJOR ARCANA (okay, sorry i went all caps on you for a second, but stay with me) contains an explicit, literal reference to its correspondent in the Ryder-Waite. Like, take The DJ: "he's the hierophant of hip." Get it? How about Prescriptions: "howling at the moon." The Moon. Get it? Do I need to be more explicit? Could you be any less observant?

Want to talk about shallow? The shallowest thing I see here is the level of thought, the analysis, and the attention span.

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I stand by my opinion that the Majors in betteryeti's deck are not correlated to the standard tarot Majors. While there may be connections in betteryeti's own mind, these connections are not apparent on the cards or the titles (as Centaur points out). And the divinatory meanings given for the cards have nothing whatsoever to do with the cards they are supposed to correlate with. For example, "Home, victory, triumph over circumstance" for the Tower. Or "Compensation, hard work, arrival" for the Devil. Burying the phrase "howling at the moon" in the card description of the "Prescriptions" card does not make it a Moon card. In my opinion. But hey, anyone's free to disagree with me. It's only my opinion.

Also, I must note that despite betteryeti's insistence that the term "metrosexual" applies to straight men, his deck does indeed directly reference gay stereotypes, as in the Decorator card: "To that end, the decorator juggles lamps and dreams, hopes and chaises, couches and ambitions. Oh, of course he's gay. He's the best kind of queen, really; he's the Empress of Expression."

Or this, from the "Gay Pal" card:

"The gay pal is the straight guy's personal magician, casting the spell of fabulosity over what would otherwise be a beige, unimaginative, upscale het-guy existence. Funny how the years change us. In high school he was mercilessly taunted and flogged for his delicate, sissy nature. Now his sensibilities and aesthetic choices are a precious resource. Gay men have always been the advance guard of metrosexuality -- just another marginalized underclass who took it on the chin so that white, het guys could benefit from the lifestyle innovations. Hmm... History repeats itself? Anyway, every metrosexual needs a gay pal and his queer eye."

I found this condescending and insulting. Forgive me for being humor-impaired, but as a member of the group being stereotyped (gay men, not metrosexuals or decorators), the humor eludes me. But hey, it's only my opinion.

I'm sorry that betteryeti is offended by opinions expressed about his deck. However, I've been expressing my opinions about tarot decks for years now, both on this forum and in other places, and I'm not going to stop now. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who won't like my deck when it's published. Doesn't bother me in the least, and I hope they post their criticisms on this forum. I'll be happy that they will have taken the time and trouble to examine my deck and to post their opinions about it, and I'm certainly not going to argue with them about their opinions.

I'm glad betteryeti brought up the word "shallow," because I think that's a perfect word to describe the Metrosexual Tarot. I wouldn't speak in such terms if the deck had been posted on this forum in the Deck Creation section. But the fact of the matter is that he posted it on a website, which to my mind is the same thing as publishing it, and it's fair game for comment and criticism.

-- Lee

I really think we could lighten up a little here. Besides, what's with deeming this lifestyle totally superficial? There's no need to pass quick judgments on a lifestyle, even if it happens to be very different from yours. I know plenty of ppl into tarot and spiritual studies who are totally flakey and superficial. Kevin Aucoin, magician of makeup and making people look FABULOUS has written books about applying makeup that I find more profound than much of what I see in the new age section.