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Paul Marteau's Book and Deck (mystery of the 4 of Coins and the Magician)


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Rusty Neon's Avatar
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the mystery of the 4 of Coins - Grimaud Tarot de Marseille


Does anyone know the reason for the Great Switch? Copyright protection reasons perhaps?

TIMELINE

1760: The 4 of Coins of the Conver Tarot de Marseille (TdM) has the three fleurs-de-lys (lilies).

1930: Paul Marteau/original Grimaud deck's 4 of Coins has the three fleurs-de-lys. (For example, see the Éditions Dusserre photoreproduction of the 1930 Marteau/Grimaud deck.)

1949: Paul Marteau's book, first published circa 1949, describes the Marteau deck's 4 of Coins as having the three fleurs-de-lys.

Somewhere between 1949 and 1977: Éditions Grimaud replaces the 4 of Coins with the three fleurs-de-lys with the 4 of Coins with the tulip. I'm pretty sure about this because the text of my 1977 copyright edition of Marteau's book describes the 4 of Coins as having the three fleurs-de-lys, whereas the accompanying full-size colour illustration of the 4 of Coins in the book is the one with the tulip.

modern day (My Grimaud deck was purchased in 2002): Grimaud deck has the 4 of Coins with the tulip.

By the way, the present-day TdM deck published by Fournier in Spain, a close clone (apart from colours) of the modern-day Grimaud, also has the 4 of Coins with the tulip.
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This is a wonderful little puzzle you've discovered. I don't have the Dusserre (I should go get it) but of the TdM and TdM-related decks I have, only the Piatnik has the same crest with 3 Fleurs-de-lys of the Conver.

I note that Camoin (restored) has a Phoenix on the crest, instead of the Fleurs-de-lys.

Every other deck has different symbols on the crest - it seems to be a fairly personalized touch.

If I remember correctly, the three fleurs-de-lys are an explicit symbol of the French crown - I can't remember exactly when they were adopted, but certainly by the time of Charles V (Valois).

So perhaps, being a changeable symbol (like the information on the two of cups, or the two of coins), some editor thought it too archaic (as if!)

The question remains though - why the change between 1930 and 1977?

BTW - how do the Dusserre and Grimaud compare in other ways?

As the Dusserre is a photoreproduction, does it lose anything in crispness?

Ross
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ross G Caldwell
The question remains though - why the change between 1930 and 1977?
Hi Ross ... You're right: The question is, why the change between 1930 and 1977? (Rather than 1949 and 1977, as written in my initial post.) After all, I don't know when Marteau actually wrote the book.

Quote:
BTW - how do the Dusserre and Grimaud compare in other ways?

As the Dusserre is a photoreproduction, does it lose anything in crispness?
I have both the Dusserre and a recently acquired (i.e., 2002) Grimaud. As a reading deck, I prefer the Dusserre over the 2002 Grimaud, for the various reasons given below.

The Dusserre reproduces the entire 1930 Bibliothèque nationale (Paris) museum specimen, except that the 2 of Coins has been doctored. The ribbon in the design on that card reads "Marseille 1768 / J.P. Dusserre / J.C./ 1990/ Paris" instead of "1930/ B.P. Grimaud / 1748". Thus, the Dusserre differs from the 2002 Grimaud in regards to the 2 of Coins and the 4 of Coins.

Pros about the Dusserre over the 2002 Grimaud: The Dusserre's blues and greens are not so dark, thus enabling one to make out the line details. As well, the Dusserre's gold and yellow colours are easier to tell apart than in the 2002 Grimaud. And, yes, the crustacean in the Dusserre Moon card is easier to make out, as it is not deep dark blue!

Cons about the Dusserre: The photography is not always crisp. In some places, it's blurry, in fact. As well, some of the colour alignment/registration in the Dusserre is off, in small areas on various cards. Still, the lighter colours make the Dusserre worthwhile. On the whole, the blurriness and colour alignment/registration aren't bad enough to be major problems.

I'd also point out that, on the Dusserre 5 of Cups card, the red underleaf part of the blue leaf on the left hand side of the middle cup is missing and is, instead, a white area. I don't know if this is because of the museum specimen itself or if it's Dusserre's fault.
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For the sake of narrowing the dates, my earliest Grimaud version (I have a few) is copyrighted 1963, and also features the stylised 'tulip' rather than the triple fleurs-de-lys.

This means that the change - if change it be - occured between 1930 and 1963.

Alternatively, the Dusserre is not true to the changes introduced by Marteau in the 1930s.

What is interesting, of course, and as significantly pointed by Rusty Neon, is that Marteau's own text confirms that the 'inside the rectangle are three stylised fleurs-de-lys' (loosely paraphrased).

(Would but I had my grandfather's copy from the times!)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmd
For the sake of narrowing the dates, my earliest Grimaud version (I have a few) is copyrighted 1963, and also features the stylised 'tulip' rather than the triple fleurs-de-lys.

This means that the change - if change it be - occured between 1930 and 1963.

Alternatively, the Dusserre is not true to the changes introduced by Marteau in the 1930s.

What is interesting, of course, and as significantly pointed by Rusty Neon, is that Marteau's own text confirms that the 'inside the rectangle are three stylised fleurs-de-lys' (loosely paraphrased).

(Would but I had my grandfather's copy from the times!)
JMD's words brought me back to the text of the 1977 book by Grimaud wherein he describes the flowers ["les trois fleurs de lys schématiques dessinées en trois émanations"] nd their placement inside the yeloow rectangle ["le rectangel jaune"]. If I have time, I'll copy the entire passage, as it is quite vague, and doesn't clearly describe either the current Grimaud card or the Dusserre card. It's been a while since I read it and was operating on my recollection of conclusions. I didn't recall the rectangle references! Obviously, my recent-day Grimaud has the red and blue coloured tulip surrounded by yellow rectange surrounded by a blue rectange, then by a red rectangle. On the other hand, the shield on the Dusserre card is not rectangular (as a rectangle needs four sides and four right angles) - On the Dusserre, it's a shield and there is a pointed part of the shield at the bottom. Thus, Grimaud's words might elliptically fit the current Grimaud card. And if not for the surroundings be described as a "rectangle", the book description could have covered the Dusserre card as well. It's stange though, in such case, that Grimaud didn't colour on the flower being red and blue, and the significances of those colours! That's uncharacteristic of Grimaud. Nor does Grimaud mention the colours of the two rectangles surrounding the yellow coloured rectangle.

As we know, the 2 of Coins was doctored by Dusserre to add the Dusserre refererences and in its printed form obviously could never correspond exactly to the BN specimen, and to their credit, Dusserre card doesn't include the red stamp of the Bibliothéque national embossed thereon. (I's hard to see the red stamp on the Dusserre XIII card because of the black on the card, but I don't there's been doctoring to that card.) Dusserre 4 of Coins DOES have the red BN stamp. So, I'm inclined to think that the Dusserre faithfully photoreproducesthe 4 of Coins of the BN specimen.

Thus, the mystery is a revised version of the mystery. It remains that at some point in time since the creation of the 1930 deck, the 4 of Coins was likely changed. However, upon further reading, it now appears that the 1977 text (and probably JMD's earlier text from the 1960s) corresponds to the current Grimaud card, though rather elliptically.


Best regards,
the humbled Rusty Neon
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Hello to you all from Japan :-)
This is my first posting here.

I also have been investigating the difference between the 1930 Marteau
deck and the present Grimaud deck, but the main object for me is not
"the 4 of coins" but "The Magician".

In the present Grimaud deck, there are two dice on the table of
"The Magician".
But in the 1930 deck (cf. the Dusserre reproduction or Kaplan's
Encyclopedia I, p138. Not p262! ) ,there are no dice but two coins(?)
instead.

I asked Mr. Thierry Depaulis for his opinion about this switch by email.
He gave me the answer by refering to Decker&Dummett's "The HIstory
of the Occult Tarot 1870-1970" , notifying he had no confidence about
this matter.

"Grimaud's 'Ancien Tarot de Marseille' was redrawn for Hades's Manuel
complete d'interpretation du Tarot (Paris, 1968). The 'Ancient Tarot
of Marseille' (Grimaud's English-language version) appeared in The Tarot
(New York and London, 1969) by Brad Steiger and Ron Warmoth." (p304)

But I recently found that in "Le Tarot de Marseille" Marteau mentioned
the dice on the table of "the Magician".(p11)
As Rusty Neon wrote, this book was first published around1949.
So the switch may have been done by this time under Marteau's instructions.

Does anyone of you happen to have a Grimaud deck published before 1949?
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You might be able to locate it here


http://trionfi.com/01/s/b/

It's from the last post with Huck's sorting of titles of 'seeing the whole deck" by 'date' of the deck

After I followed the link to the listing,
I tried to pull up pictures of at least two Grimauds--look at the ninth one listed. It may not be the example you are looking for, but it's dated as a 1963 edition.

And the 69th deck down, a Grimaud says "standard deck-groups of persons"-- sorry, I could only pick up the text listing. It's late and my browser and brain aren't picking up pictures correctly.

But maybe your browser will be able to pick up images and it will help.

Mari H.
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Re: You might be able to locate it here


Quote:
Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
http://trionfi.com/01/s/b/

It's from the last post with Huck's sorting of titles of 'seeing the whole deck" by 'date' of the deck

After I followed the link to the listing,
I tried to pull up pictures of at least two Grimauds--look at the ninth one listed. It may not be the example you are looking for, but it's dated as a 1963 edition.

And the 69th deck down, a Grimaud says "standard deck-groups of persons"-- sorry, I could only pick up the text listing. It's late and my browser and brain aren't picking up pictures correctly.

But maybe your browser will be able to pick up images and it will help.

Mari H.
Yes, this is the one JMD is talking about, I think. It has the red and blue "tulip." Thus the change occurred between 1930 and 1963, or perhaps between 1949 and 1963.

Incidentally, from looking at many 4 of coins (and Diamonds/Carreaux) it does seem that makers will put some kind of personal symbol on it. Perhaps Grimaud adopted the Tulip at some point. I think it is fascinating that they would publish a better facsimile in 1930 though.
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Welcome to the Aeclectic Tarot boards, kenji.

Thanks for reminding me about the Magician; I had completely forgotten. I'm the kind that doesn't keep a journal of these things, so I forgot to post about it.

Yes, further to what kenji points out, the 1930 Marteau deck doesn't expressly show the dice, the current day Grimaud does, and the image of the card in the Marteau book does.

As kenji also points out, the description of the Magician card in Marteau's book refers, at page 11, to the two dice.

Quoting from p. 11 (my translation):

"The dice, image of chance, are yellow to show that divine intelligence always intervenes and that there is not chance. The dots inscribed on the dice indicate well what man calls chance, but it is the combination of numbers obeying profound laws that makes it [i.e., chance] disappear."

Interesting that Marteau talks about chance "disappearing". He may be describing the current Grimaud image of the Magician with its explicity-illustrated dice. Or perhaps the card image he's describing is the 1930 card image, without any dots on the "dice", i.e., the dots disappear because of the disappearance of chance.

Like the Marteau book description for the flower in the centre in the 4 of Coins card (See one of my earlier posts to this thread), the Marteau book description for the dice in the Magician card is potentially cryptic, in a way so that it magically matches both the 1930 card and the current Grimaud card.

I find the cryptic language weird, since throughout the book in general, Marteau describes and interprets various and sundy images more expressly.

The interpretation of the two blobs in question in the Magician card may well be linked to a Marseilles deck oral tradition which interprets them as being dice. I also note that the Jodo-Camoin deck - which often makes oral tradition explicit (e.g., the door in the Tower card) - makes the two dice explicit in the Magician card, and even adds a third die. Someone who has the Hadar deck, could you please advise me as to whether the "dice" there are made explicit and how many dice there are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
Someone who has the Hadar deck, could you please advise me as to whether the "dice" there are made explicit and how many dice there are.
No Dice on the table of Le Bastelevr in the Hadar TdM deck. There are two round objects (coins) instead.
Top   #10

 





 


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