Looking at Queens

[Moongold]

I’d like to quote from another thread in consideration of the Marseilles Queens. If we were to begin with the Queens what would we say?

Queens know who they are. Let me refer to Rachel Pollack's summary of their roles

• A. They know who they are and their rightful place in the world
  B. They are the expression of female power in their various ways
  C. They express a quality as much as their gender
  D They appreciate life
  E. They inspire rather than command
  

In the Sephiroth Tarot, each Queen personifies the characteristics of one of the four suits but in general they:

• A. Express the importance of integrating and adapting concepts and procedures
  B. Represent the fluid, magnetic atmosphere of each suit
  C. Manage authority and responsibility
  D. Hold the intelligence of nature, natural instincts and desires and the truth of the heart and soul rather than the mind.
  E. Hold instinctual discrimination between right and wrong, health and unhealthy, good and bad

Mary Greer said; While Queens and Kings are equally skilled, the Queens have fully developed talents that are personal and interpersonal and they focus on understanding the deeper underlying meanings of things. As a Queen of Cups or Pentacles you are caring, nurturing and comforting. As Queen of Wands or Swords you are directing, teaching. observing and implementing, Queens accomplish things. They give advice. Queens are most like the Empress. They are related to the element of water.

Let me begin by saying that I have no really strong feelings about where a discussion like this should take place. I am a newcomer to the Marseilles and I cannot help but bring my knowledge of other decks to the study of the Marseilles. I have been hovering in some kind of limbo all day about where to begin with this.

Diana has a tread somewhere in this forum about the Reyne de Deniers and she and JMD seem to have made some connections that are similar to ones I’m familiar with in relation to non-Marseilles decks, alluded to in the quotation above.

There are no real rules in tarot (is that really so?) and I guess it’s appropriate to examine the Marseilles Queens using the same same attributes as those given to their distant relatives, post 1912.

If one looks at each of the Marseilles Queens there is nothing bar the symbol of the suit to identify them with the element of the suit. Two immediate questions come to mind. When did the Queens first appear in Tarot decks? When were the elements first attributed to suits? They seem to have been there since the beginning.

And also, when did the correspondences between the Tree of Life and Tarot begin? A lot of information I use in my study of tarot comes from snippets of information from everywhere. I really do understand the value of the History and Iconography Forum, and think it would be good perhaps to have a general history of Post 1900 Tarots. Perhaps I should be mining the threads of this particular forum seeking these answers.

Another question comes to mind. What is the best way to for a newcomer to begin the study of the Marseilles? Is it to pick out those parts of the deck that appeal, as the Queens called to me last night?

Would people knowledgeable in the Marseilles say the attributes given to the Queens by Pollack, Mori & Stockwell and Greer quoted above also work with the Marseilles Queens?

Let’s look at these Queens. I am using the Fournier deck.

The Reyne de Batons is actually a powerful looking Queen. She is sitting in a quite masculine way, knees apart with one sturdy arm resting on one knee whilst the other supports quite a formidable baton slung over a shoulder. Her face is sunburned and her hair floats casually behind her. Her crown sits almost rakishly towards the back of her head. She is pictured against a green background.

She looks as though she has just come back from a foray of some kind where there was a huge requirement for energy and strength Yet her dress is impeccable and gives an impression of immensely contained energy

The Reyne de Deniers bears a strong resemblance to Paul Keating, a former Australian Prime Minister. She has olive skin and a receding chin. Her hair is hidden by a headdress, different from the crowns of the other queens. Is she the wife of a middle eastern trading monarch of some description? Notice the difference in the size of her hands. In one very sturdy hand she holds an immense coin and in the other she holds a scepter of queenly authority. She is pictured against a yellow background. She looks comfortable and assured.

And now we come to the Reyne de Coups . The Reyne has perhaps more classically feminine, fine features than the other Queens. She holds a huge cup in one hand and a kind of thin rod in another – a scepter of some description She is blond also and seems to sit in some kind of canopy, against a back ground of red. Her knees also are apart. This entrances me. It is a much more comfortable way to sit, made modest by the long dresses of the Queens. When did the social convention of women crossing their legs demurely creep into our culture? Clearly these powerful Renaissance women were not constrained by such expectations.

Now the next Queen, the Reyne d’Epee has me smiling. I think of all the threads we have had in the past about the Queen of Swords and the transferences on to her, and can’t see any of this happening with this Queen. She sits almost timidly on her throne (the only throne to be seen with all the Queens), a slightly worried look on her face as she tentatively holds a red sword while one hand is raised before her breast as it to say Don’t worry – I’m not sure how to use this! . She sits against a background of blue.

These are all splendid images. What powerful women I see here! How do they fit in with the other court cards, in the overall context. What is their power alongside their Kings and in their suits?



Moongold

[Moongold]

Ah..... i found this thread which is very interesting and outlines some of the history of the Marseilles courts

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...&threadid=8909

It seems the Queens were a later addition to the Marseilles.

This opens questions for me about reading with the Marseilles.

One could simply read with say, the Fournier or any other Marseilles, using contemporary interpretations. A person might do this, for example with the Old English Tarot with assistance from numerology, alchemy and astrology.

However, what seems to give the Marseilles its distinctiveness IS the history. Knowledge of the history would enrich the readings significantly. Otherwise the Marseilles is perhaps not really a lot different from any other deck. The symbolism is simply a little different.

Moongold

[Rusty Neon]

Originally posted by Moongold
However, what seems to give the Marseilles its distinctiveness IS the history. Knowledge of the history would enrich the readings significantly. Otherwise the Marseilles is perhaps not really a lot different from any other deck. The symbolism is simply a little different.

Knowledge of the card history is perhaps more important for reading of the major arcana than for the reading of the minor arcana. The distinctiveness of the minor arcana, especially the court cards, goes beyond the history. The Marseilles minor arcana are very evocative and expressive. The Marseilles court cards, especially, speak volumes and tell stories - much more than the court cards of other tarot decks.

[Moongold]

Originally posted by Rusty Neon
Knowledge of the card history is perhaps more important for reading of the major arcana than for the reading of the minor arcana. The distinctiveness of the minor arcana, especially the court cards, goes beyond the history. The Marseilles minor arcana are very evocative and expressive. The Marseilles court cards, especially, speak volumes and tell stories - much more than the court cards of other tarot decks.

I don't know enough yet but I can see how the Courts could evoke all sorts of stories. I almost said that we could project all sorts of stories on to them. There is a subtle difference there.

With my limited knowledge I am curious about your observations about the Courts of other decks. They do seem to be very bland, most of them, particularly the Kings. Do you think this is partly because we don't have many Kings per se these days and the concept of male authority has moved a long way from the Kingship of mediaeval or renaissance days?

I can see us doing the same with the pips but using the elements and numerology as well as intuition. I haven't yet had enough experience reading with non-scenic pips but find the idea increasingly interesting.

I would really like to "play" a lot more with this kind of reading as we were doing initially.

Moongold

[Moongold]

Of course.......I have not considered the obvious - the Queens in relation to the Majors.

In contemporary Tarot one would do that - think of the Queens in relation to the Empress - more so than the other "feminine" Tarot figures.

Moongold

[Moongold]

Originally posted by Moongold
Another question comes to mind. What is the best way to for a newcomer to begin the study of the Marseilles? Is it to pick out those parts of the deck that appeal, as the Queens called to me last night?

Well, I have learned more today than I imagined I could. I don't know the answer to the above question. I think I have found a path of some kind by doing this today. I guess it is as appropriate to enter the doors of knowledge by way of the Queens as any other way.

It is important to look at the cards in suits, particularly the Courts. The symbols for elements change, evolve throughout the progression of Courts from Valet to King.

I wonder what this means for every suit. It is easy to guess for one of two eg Batons. Why does the Reyne D'Epee have a red sword whilst everyone else in her suit has a golden one? Why is she frowning?

What are the roles of each of the Courts? Is there a tradition around the way these roles are understood or can one simply "imagine " the meanings?

As Rusty Neon says (from memory), the Courts have more of a tale to tell than the Courts in other contemporary decks. Certainly they are all very different.

In another thread last week I wondered about traditions surrounding the symbolism of Marseilles decks and the way it should be understood but can't seem to find much written. I can feel them, however, and feel as though I've already tripped over them a couple of times. Oh well.

The quest has just begun, however.


Moongold

[Diana]

Moongold: I get the impression that as you share your musings with us, that you are answering your own questions, and at the same time clearing away cobwebs in other people's minds.

For a while now, I have also had feeling that you have found the keys to the doors and that you are opening them one by one. Once you have opened them all, you will see that the treasure has been lying there waiting for you...

(I think reading good historical novels of the Renaissance period could be very helpful in understanding the Marseille, and is a pleasant and relaxing exercice.)

[Jewel-ry]

Originally posted by Moongold

These are all splendid images. What powerful women I see here! How do they fit in with the other court cards, in the overall context. What is their power alongside their Kings and in their suits?

Moongold

Moongold

Please look at this thread. I did put a link in the Fournier thread elsewhere but in case you dont find it, here it is again:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...threadid=22562
This is a reply from Kris Hadar (which Diana kindly translated for us) about the crowns of the kings. It includes information about the queen of cups in relation to her king which I found really interesting.

J

[Moongold]

Diana, thank you for your response. Yes I am seeing much of beauty and interest in the Marseilles now.

Jewel_ry, thank you also. I did read the thread but I think it was after I posted here. It was a beautiful thread.

Moongold

[Jewel-ry]

What strikes me about these queens, is that they each tell a story on their own but when you put them with their kings, the story becomes an essay! In each case I have put the King to the left of the queen (putting yourself in my shoes).

Reyne de Deniers

She holds her pentacle up high and is proud. What you see is what you get and she has nothing to hide. I suspect she speaks her mind. But she is of the Earth ilke and so is nurturing, practical and understands the way of the world. She definately goes for comfort. This is evident from the way she wears her crown, pushed to the back of her head. In the Hadar deck, part of her robe falls and coils around her feet which gives a luxurious feel to this card. Put her next to her king and they have a closeness and understanding about them. They look at each other with a knowing look, its as if they each know what the other is thinking.

Reyne d'espees

She is the airy suit and so matters of the mind are the quality she represents. Just look at her face. She looks a little worried, she has things on her mind! Frowning can show uncertainty. She holds the sword away from her body as though she understands its power but is unsure of what to do with it. She looks pregnant and in my opinion she appears to pat her swollen belly. If you place her next to her king, the face on his shoulder, epoulettes is laughing at her (Fournier). Now looking at the Hadar deck, she sits at the bottom of a flight of stairs and her king looks like he's got his legs swung one way to prevent him from falling in the cellar! Or is it a trapdoor? Or even a tomb? What is going on with this pair. A hidden secret.

Reyne de Bastons

She holds her baton close to her body, like a club or a violin. She appears confident. 'This is mine', now what shall I do with it? This is the creative suit so wanting to direct her energy into something would fit nicely. If she was stood up her hands would be on her hips and I see her defiance even though she is seated. Now put her with her king and they dont even look at each other. The defiance seems even more evident, particularly in the Hadar.

Reyne de Coupe

She holds her cup balanced on her knee. I find it hard to be objective with this card now because having read Kris Hadars view about these two, I just see them as the loving couple, friendly and loyal. Spiritually and emotionally in tune with each other. They share not only their lives but their secrets and their thoughts. I think this is better seen in the Hadar than the Fournier.

You are right Moongold, there are stories to be found in these cards and I suspect they could be different each time I look!

J