Historical decks - information please

[Moonbow]

I am thinking of putting alot more effort and study into historical study of Tarot. (my other decks can be for light enjoyment). If I were to start an historical collection of decks - which should I go for to get a good grounding. I am thinking I need for example, a marseilles, an Italian, Etteila, Soprafino. But I don't even know what these are!!!

I suppose I have more than one question:

1. which decks to collect

2. what are all the different decks

3. what is the difference between the marseilles decks (do you need more than one?)

I am also on a budget but would like to start my historical collection - now! I have a Hadar marseilles so far - any advise of where to get decks cheaply and which ones to go for would be much appreciated.

Edited to say: I also have 1jjswiss, and on order the Ancient minchiate Etruria (will it ever get here??)

[Le_Corsair]

It might be a better idea to invest in the various volumes of Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot. Volume Two, I am told, includes in-depth discussion of historical decks of the type that you mention.

Bob

[Rusty Neon]

Hi Moonbow ... I'll give you some quick pointers. The more historically minded in the bunch are certainly more competent than me to give a more detailed list of recommendations.

1760 Conver: There is the complete specimen photoreproduced by Héron. A different specimen, 77/78ths complete, is photoreproduced by Lo Scarabeo. It's nice to have both, as they're differently coloured and they let you see the details of the cards in a different light. The Conver is the most prevalent pattern among Marseilles decks. As other posters will be telling you, you can fill out your collection with Dodal and Noblet TdM restorations. Dodal and Noblet are TdMs that predate the Conver. Unfortuately, there is no full deck photoreproduction or restoration in print. There is a major arcana restoration of the Dodal and Noblet decks available from JC Flornoy.

Also worth checking out is the Camoin Bicentennial which was run off a few decades ago using 1880 colours and 1760 Conver plates. It's a deck whose cards are made from thicker cardboard, I understand. JMD has it. That deck is still in print but quite expensive. You've no doubt seen the recent thread by Lee telling us about the deck/book set by Lyle which deck is a photoreproduction of the Camoin Bicentennial.

The Viéville, not precisely a Marseilles and predating the Conver, is interesting to own as well.

1930 Marteau: Of the post-1899 redrawn Marseilles decks, the Marteau deck is the most accurate modern line drawing of the 1760 Conver. However, the Marteau colours are completely different from and don't correspond with the colours of either the Héron Conver or the Lo Scarabeo Conver.

Note that the Hadar deck and Jodo-Camoin deck - because they are re-"visions" - are not as accurate recreations of the line drawings from 1760. Try to get the 1930 Marteau photoreproduced by Dusserre. A second choice to the Dusserre Marteau is the Grimaud, a redrawing of the 1930 deck, and less true to the line drawings of 1760.

If you want an Etteilla, Grimaud's Grand Etteilla will get you the closest to the version of the deck that Etteilla created. There are other Etteilla versions whose icongraphy is totally different from Grand Etteilla decks. Unfortunately, the Grimaud's Etteilla keywords vary from the Etteilla School's original or even first revised version keyword. Another minus is that the card titles are bilingual English/French while the original Etteilla titles were French only. I was fortunate to get the Dusserre photoreproduction of an 18th century Grand Etteilla deck, with first revision keywords and in French alone. That Dusserre deck is out of print, but you may chance upon it in your travels.

Hope this helps until the more extensive posts come along.

By the way, there have been several threads in H&I and Tarot Decks giving inventories of the various Marseilles decks available.

Don't forget to check out Tom Little's historical deck site. Lots of good stuff along the lines you're asking.

http://www.tarothermit.com/

In this post, I've not covered the Soprafino, Mantegna, Minchiate, Visconti, post-1760 Marseilles cousins, etc.

Note that the Mantegna and Minchiate are not tarot decks strictly speaking, and that some people think the Etteilla isn't a true tarot deck.

** Edited to revise paragraph above regarding 1930 Marteau **

[Rusty Neon]

Originally posted by Le_Corsair
It might be a better idea to invest in the various volumes of Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot. Volume Two, I am told, includes in-depth discussion of historical decks of the type that you mention.

Bob

Bob's right. I don't have the Kaplan encyclopedias but have looked at them at the public library reference section. Good stuff in there; many out of print decks and photos of cards from museum specimens. It's better to learn tarot history from books rather than owning the decks themselves. However, once you have narrowed down what you like in the way of historical decks, it's fun to actually own a few photoreproduction decks. With the reproduction decks that I have (e.g., the two 1760 Convers, the 1930 Marteau, and the 18th century Grand Etteilla), by having those decks I end up feeling closer to tarot tradition than I could from reading books alone however good.

[Moonbow]

Sorry to take so long to get back to you - I've been Googling - such alot to take in!

I have another question - where do you buy these? I've been looking at Alida and I really like the Eteila but.... decision time... which decks first?

I know the Minchiate is not strickly a Tarot - but I nearly bought it once - because I liked it then changed my mind - and now I have it on order again - I just 'want' it.

I know the sensible thing may be the Kaplan volumes, but, it's the decks I'm interested in really - 'I need to play!' not just read.

[Cerulean]

1. To start:

Marseilles-Visconti- Modern

http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/

2. Mom of 3 Girls had a Visconti thread that might be helpful to read through.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...light=visconti


3. Jewelry started a deck on Soprafino decks:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...ight=soprafino

Cheers,

Mari

[jmd]

Great advice here...

I suppose that if I was starting afresh, and not having the Dusserre and thus not being able to comment on that one, I would probably get the following, in that order:

Firstly, to get a couple of full 78 card decks, I would get the Heron Conver and the Vieville (Tarot Garden has these).

Next I would probably obtain the Dodal and Noblet reproductions (major arcana only) by Flornoy (letarot.com).

Following these, I would definitely get the Encyclopedia of Tarot, especially volume 2 (as suggested), and then slowly add to these with time decks such as the Camoin, the Hadar, the Félicité, the Marteau/Grimaud, the LS Conver, and others...

...now, of course, if I were to post this in five months, it may change

[Ross G Caldwell]

I can also vouch for the beauty of the Lo Scarabeo Conver reproduction - it is from the same plates as the Héron, but is larger, brighter, and less laminated. The old original that the Lo Scarabeo is based on lacks the six of Bâton, which they have recreated from the seven, but since it is identical to the Héron, it is a minor inconvenience.

[Moonbow]

Thankyou for your advise everyone - I've been looking at all these links and images and I now have an historical wishlist - which is growing!

M*