ae waite

[cartarum]

waites writing although difficult to decipher should be the authority on tarot in general. there are forces which prevent the publication of books which tell all. the books that do, are either lost or incredibly rare. the only reason that waites book was published is that his writing is very difficult to read. however, when you learn so much about tarot, that you are an adept, you can reference his writing and lo! it was there all along. many of you know what i mean. those who dont, can pm me and if you quote waites writing, i can help you interpret it to the best that i can. if you want to know more about the "forces" that prevent publication, then pm me
~A~

[firemaiden]

...an extreme position, cartarum, care to support your views?

[HudsonGray]

Considering the state of modern publishing, the whole thing holding any book back would be lack of an audience. It's all money, cartarum, if it won't justify the expense of printing a book, warehousing it and distributing it nation(or world)-wide, they won't do it. ANY book can be rewritten into something people can read, so no matter how obtuse his original work may have been, ghost writers abound today & the thing could get printed.

Subject to the anticipated sales of 'said book', of course. I don't believe there are any mystical Powers That Be that are keeping rare/old books from being reprinted. What's the point of that? That's be the same as burning it so it no longer is available at all.

[HOLMES]

we do have the pictural key to the tarot,
and kessinger publications do have a reprint of his kabbalah book.

i think he is one of the authorities, but let us not forget crowley, mathers, paul foster case.

i am interested into what these forces are for such things if important should be posted here for all to read, but in context to how waite books would of been a danger to said forces ?.

today it is largely a matter of money , if smut sells they print it,
if it is a story of a recently mass murder revealed they go and make a book about him or her,
it work on the other side of the coin as well if angels are hot , you see tons of angels books get released for that two months or so.

[jmd]

I remain unsure as to why it should be considered that Waite is in any way a better 'authority' on Tarot than others.

His writings in Freemasonry have generally been found wanting, his writings on Kabbalah likewise, his writings on Alchemy too, his changes and modifications of the Golden Dawn materials for his own reformed order have been put to question by various groups, his views of Levi severely criticised by many (including, of course, Crowley, who considered himself to be Levi's re-incarnation)...

Nonetheless, there is, amongst the vast amounts of written material, much which is worthy of reflection.

As to what he did not write, because of his oaths in various orders, these may be gleemed from joining Freemasonry, SRIA, and working with others the grades of the GD via the works of especially Regardie and the Zalewskis...

His 'secrets' will undoubtedly remain his secrets - but much which he does not say himself has long been published (the meaning of the 'B' & 'J' on the pillars of the High Priestess, the reason for the transposition of Justice and Strength, the Golden Dawn Hebrew letter attributions, &c).

[cartarum]

i was refering of course, to the pictorial key to the tarot. not all of waites writing is like the pictorial key. alot of it is quite readable.
his use of the english language is vast, you need a dictionary sometimes. the "forces" i mentioned are both metaphysical and material. i should mention that nearly all books written on tarot merely elaborate on the work of crowley and waite.
its amazing that most people ive met think that if you create a new deck, with a new lwb, that you have a completely different tarot. but its all the same! all those rws clones testify to that.
the work of crowley, although illuminated is still the same message that waite presents. the only difference is the spreads they used which helped to influence the meanings of the cards.
the reason that the greatest books are never published is embedded in the tarot itself. for every "amazing" thing you can do with tarot, there is a logical, scientific reason that the intellectuals will give. "you knew the question so you answered it you dont need cards for that"
it is the same with publication. some people dont know how dangerous that information is, so the books never get published.
read into that what you will, intellectuals all.

[HudsonGray]

"it is the same with publication. some people dont know how dangerous that information is, so the books never get published."

That doesn't make sense on two levels -- If a publisher doesn't know what's in the book & he doesn't publish it, there's nothing sinister in that in and of itself, but that won't be the reason that the book isn't published.

And if a publisher DOES know what he has, what does he care? It's money in the bank to sell books, which is why he's in business. Look how many 'tell all' magic books there've been out in the past 15 years once the New Age movement really hit. It's in his best interest as a publisher to get a book out that's of interest to people, even if it can only be used by those who study tarot's history & are in the know. It's an audience. If he has a book he wants to sit on, the person or estate with the manuscript can choose to submit the manuscript to a different publisher. The choice to SUBMIT the manuscript is in the hands of the person who has it legally, the publisher is only one person in the chain of events that gets a book to market.

Why wouldn't the owners of the work burn the manuscript then? Or keep it in their posession till they figure the time is right for getting it out to the public? Making the publisher the fall guy doesn't make sense. If there actually was a secret society who doesn't want things to come to print, they'd buy up the rights to it & keep it off the market, like any other fringe group. The publisher works with contracts, if they buy the rights, they HAVE to print within the stated number of years on the contract or pay the manuscript owners a default fee, they can't sit on it or re-buy the rights to keep it in their possession. Contract law is extremely specific. The publisher must bring the book to market within (I think) two years or they loose the contract, plus can't demand a refund on their cash advance given to the author (10-50%, depending on the book). The publisher can get first crack at reprint rights, but those are up to the discretion of the author & are ONLY available after the book has been already printed and sold to the public. Considering the economic levels the publishing houses face today, nobody wants to take a hit of that kind of proportion to sit on a book for a mere two years to keep it out of the hands of us unsuspecting public. And if it IS done this way, what happens after the time period is up? See, it makes no sense.

I admit that what you've given us is pretty vague and doesn't jive with how publishers work. If I'm way off base & you mean the owner of the manuscript doesn't want to publish it, that's entirely their perogative, and fine. A lot of info on the Freemasons never got out for decades either, but that didn't make it sinister. It's their right to sit on what they figure is their info. Nothing malicious about it.

[HOLMES]

i would add that these elaborations are clarifcations that help many that the waite and crowley book do not. eden grey work for example was based on waite but her common sense approach reached more people and help bring tarot to a simpler understanding . at least from what i think i know.

i would disgree with "but it's all the same" there are some imagers in the robin wood that reach me differntly then the waite deck as well as the rest of the rider waite clones. true when i use any tarot i get an image of the waite in my mind, as it was my first deck. but i use it extend, to add to what the image of the modern tarot i am using gives me.

one example of what you are saying is the orin and daben book awakening the light body that was promised but hasnt' been published yet for the masses energy levels are not ready.
but that is the rare case.

i think a more pratical example is like the aquatic tarot would't be published by the us games for it would conflict with their sales of the universal waite and now radiant rider when the aquatic tarot is so beutiful that money talks and the art suffers as it walks.

you can get lots from the waite and toth book,
however a book like the spiritual tarot , the 78 degrees of wisdom, tarot for yourself, jungian tarot as a way of life,
tarot and the tree of life:every day wisdom in the minor arcana,
the hallow quest , jungian tarot , dream power tarot,
talk of things , take it in an other directin then toth and waite so much that i would fully adovocate reading these and studying these versions.

waite and crowley made of made definative versions of the tarot , and tarot knowledge but they are not the end all, nor the beginning of it all.
but i must say they are sure something of it all .
ehhe.
.

[jmd]

There are a number of issues raised by Cartarum which I tend to very much agree with... yet, possibly also like others, respond with concern when someone uses the public aspect of the discussion board which is Aeclectic to invite others to seek for further 'knowledge' by PM from the poster - knowledge which presumably others here may not be privy to, and which would not be made 'public'!

There are undoubtedly numerous books which could be published but which do not simply because, despite their possibly being commercially viable, are written in ways or about subjects which the publisher prefers not to touch. I even know of someone who has a vast collection of second hand books (and has a bookshop) who just stores certain books, refusing to either pass them on or sell them as they, in the context of his particular spiritual views, are not for the betterment of humanity... I mention this not to pass judgement, but to simply illustrate that personal views of course plays into whoever has positions in which they need to make decisions.

The situation is, of course, that there are now so many publishers, and self-publication also being relatively easy, that any who really want to publish their book may with relative ease... of course, this is without due consideration as to the hurddles brought forth by spiritual forces.

It may well be these latter to which cartarum may also be referring: if one was to write a book which had trully revealed particular aspects which had consequences for spiritual beings which they would prefer to halt, then would not forces be brought to bear in order to falter publication? Whether or not it would be successful is of course another matter.

Returning to Waite, I personally do not find his writing with regards to the Tarot - whether his Pictorial Key to the Tarot or his other writings such as his essay 'The Great Symbols of the Tarot' (in The Occult Review of 1926), for that matter - any more difficult than his other books which tend to contain rather lengthy and, to many of our modern eyes, tedious paragraphs.

The few statements he makes as to his 'not being able to reveal' certain things have, as I have said, long since been unveiled...

AE Waite certainly forms part of my library, and would not want to throw out his books... but, again, he certainly has not, for me, the 'authority' which others seem to elevate him to - here I refer not to cartarum but to people I have met in various places.

As to whether many new Tarot decks published have taken from the influence of himself and Pamela Colman Smith, that is without a doubt the case in the many - or indeed very many - decks which have since appeared. Similarly, of course, each of these, including the RWCS, owes something to the Wirth, to the Eteilla, and, ultimately, to the Marseille. After all, to create a Tarot deck, one needs to keep to many of its 'codes', or Tarot it would not be.