Five of Swords - What about the hilts?

[VGimlet]

Hmm, so as I was contemplating this card, I started trying to figure out what the decorations were on the hilts of the swords.

From the bottom - Crown, snake (also on the hilt of a lot of swords in this suit, for obvious reasons), fish....next we have
Dew rag? mop? very stylized flame? next one - ocean wave? number six? salamander?

[Dragons_Wing]

at least to me it looks like: crown, snake, fish, fire, water... maybe to portray the whole spirt (altho i'm not sure how a crown means spirt) earth, fire, water.

of course i could be influenced by the fact that i just learned what the back of the deck (rose cross) means and that seems to have a big influence on it... thats just my ramblings.

[Emily]

It also looks like the bottom sword has a piece broken out of its blade. The other 4 Swords are bearing down on it- in defeat - The card in the bottom left has a snake wrapped around the hilt, I had to turn the card upside down to see this lol

I did notice just how many different types of hilt Lady Harris used in Swords cards - its amazing she didn't run out of ideas.

[CreativeFire]

This thread has made me curious to have a closer look at these sword hilts!

I am only new to the Thoth and don't yet have a reference book to help me understand the symbology in the images (on order!) but the Crown does make sense to me being at the bottom with the broken sword.

As this is an inverted pentagram - the top apex usually represents the spirit, and by this being turned upside down and the others bearing down on it - makes sense in regards to the title of the card "Defeat". Makes me think of the defeated spirit.

The Fish makes sense for water, the "six" looking one makes me think of wind - therefore air. The other two have me confused though as I have always associated Snake to fire not earth. But the other one does look a bit like a flame ??

Also noticed the symbol of Venus (or female) at the top - wonder what this represents?

I think this is one of the things I like so much about the Thoth - as soon as you think you have figured out some of the answers - you just end up with more questions! LOL

CreativeFire

[Rusty Neon]

Ziegler's _Mirror of the Soul_ (strictly an intuitive-based approach to the deck):

"Each sword's grip indicates a different aspect of this situation [i.e., injured, out of harmony]. The fish represents the past, the sleeping snake shows that no renewal is happening, the downward-pointing crown symbolizes lost awareness, the ram's horn shows that new impulses are lacking and nothing will be set in motion, and the seashell expresses the need for protection."

[CreativeFire]

Thanks for the additional info, Rusty Neon, some interesting ideas there and food for thought.

CreativeFire

[Dragons_Wing]

Originally posted by Rusty Neon
Ziegler's _Mirror of the Soul_ (strictly an intuitive-based approach to the deck):

"Each sword's grip indicates a different aspect of this situation [i.e., injured, out of harmony]. The fish represents the past, the sleeping snake shows that no renewal is happening, the downward-pointing crown symbolizes lost awareness, the ram's horn shows that new impulses are lacking and nothing will be set in motion, and the seashell expresses the need for protection."

which one is the sea shell?

[Emily]

Hi Dragons_Wing,

I think that the one to the right of the fish may be the seashell, it sort of looks like a conch shell but the other does look like a snail shell, no it does look like a rams horn - i think lol.

Which one do you think is the shell?

Edited to say:-
I have this card in front of me and I'm not so sure now - but rams horns are usually curved like the silver coloured hilt - going to have a look through the books .

[CreativeFire]

Originally posted by Emily
Hi Dragons_Wing,

I think that the one to the right of the fish may be the seashell, it sort of looks like a conch shell but the other does look like a snail shell, no it does look like a rams horn - i think lol.

Which one do you think is the shell?

Edited to say:-
I have this card in front of me and I'm not so sure now - but rams horns are usually curved like the silver coloured hilt - going to have a look through the books .

Emily, please do let us know if you find any more info, as I thought the spiral looking one was the ram's horn and the more vertical red coloured one was the shell. I think when I get my book it is really going to help with this deck, as I started to think about the snake more. How can you tell the snake is "sleeping" in the image - I never would have picked up that connection just by looking at it!

CreativeFire

[VGimlet]

Ahh, it makes sense now.

Although I the more upright one looks more like a flame than a shell to me - but either one makes sense if you look ahead to the six....

I may have to invest in Zeilger's book. And maybe I'm not seeing the deck clearly enough, due to the greenish hue, so perhaps I need to invest in a good clear large deck.