The Sword: Marseilles Justice and Queen of Swords cards juxtaposed

[Rusty Neon]

This thread is an offshoot of the 9 of Swords in the Marseilles decks thread.

The sword of lady Justice in the Justice cards of both the 1701 Dodal Tarot de Marseille and the 1760 Conver Tarot de Marseille decks is positioned not at top dead centre (TDC) but instead is a couple of degrees after TDC.

The Queen of Swords is the human counterpart of her superhuman trump sister, Justice. On the question of the sword, we see that the Queen of Swords' sword is positioned a couple of degrees before TDC. In the Conver, the queen looks at if she's looking at her sword and her facial expression is as if she is frustrated about the sword not being at TDC or not being at 'past TDC' as Justice's sword.

Guys, what's your view on this?

One feeling that initially comes to my mind at the juxtaposition of the Justice and the Queen of Swords cards is that humans are given very high absolute standards to achieve, which in fact are unrealistic for them to achieve, leading only to frustration. We should rejoice at what we can actually achieve and at how far we've come.

The queen is frustrated in failing to reach 'past TDC' as shown by Justice. But if the queen relaxes and gains a realistic picture, and makes the necessary efforts to achieve TDC, she can succeed. In this respect, TDC is an achievable standard that is particular to the given individual and is set differently for each of us.

[Moongold]

Rusty Neon~

I am not sure what you mean by Top Dead Centre. I am looking at the Fournier and the Conver right now and the Swords held by both Justice and Reyne D'Epee are in their right hands over to the left of the image facing the viewer.

Justice holds her Sword a little lower than the Reyne in both decks. Is this what you mean?

The Reyne has a worried appearance in the Fournier and a slightly quizzical face in the Conver. In fact in real life I would not go terribly near the Fournier Reyne D'Epees.

Justice certainly appears more relaxed in both decks.

I can see Justice appearing more relaxed but I personally would not make the interpretation that you have but I am not all that experienced with this deck. Your take is a subtle and personal one that sounds valid, however.

Moongold

[Rusty Neon]

Moongold,

Thanks for your interest.

By Top Dead Centre (TDC) in this case, I mean that the blade is at TDC if it's facing upwards at exactly the 12:00 o'clock position.

I've just pulled out the Fournier and the Conver decks and see that the differences in sword orientation for the two relevant cards are essentially the same as between the two decks.

Justice's sword is at past TDC, at around 12:01 on the Fournier and more like 12:02 on the Conver - If you line the sword up against the chair pillar you will see that the sword is not at 12:00. The Queen of Swords' sword is at before TDC, about 11:56 on the Fournier and Conver cards.

I realize that the interpretation in my initial post is personal and not a profound 'esoteric' discovery, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

[jmd]

For the interest of comparisons of these two cards, I attach the from the Dodal in this and the next post... and afterwards make some comments.

Here is the Queen of Swords:

[jmd]

...and Justice:

[jmd]

Elsewhere, I have commented on a similar aspect of Justice with regards to the scales not appearing 'balanced', and noted that this was possibly due to aesthetic sensibilities in trying to give more three-dimentional feel to what is a 2-D representation. Of course, this is mere comment on my part, nothing more.

With the upright swords on these two respective cards, I personally again tend to see it in that way.

Interestingly, the Conver is very close to a vertical representation, but the Dodal seems to be more obliquely presented (see the two Dodal attachments above).

With regards to the formal relationship between Queen of Swords and the Virtue of Justice, I personally do not consider that the former is 'the human counterpart' to the latter. Iconographically, there are of course similarities and, as one especially draws (in the sense of 'creating' and 'painting') the Queen, the depiction of Justice does inevitably come to mind - differences thus have to be clearly maintained in order for the Queen not to lose her queen-ness and become the depiction of a virtue.

On many Marseille decks, the Queen of Swords is also seemingly represented as pregnant, a detail worth noting when considering and comparing the Courts as a group.

[Eco74]

The Queen of Swords tends to be more of a thinker and planner than a doer, and the position of the sword seems to indicate a "think ahead" and chance to alter things although the situation is coming to a close.

Justice though is about facing up to things that have already been done (aswell as the bit about thinking about what you do and seeing to the hart of the matter) which in my mind atleast adds up to the past being the past and you have to work with that in the current situation.


So while the Queen of Swords is saying "you still have a chance at changing the outcome" Justice seems to be saying "okay, here is what you earn for what you've already done".


There are several more aspects of both these cards ofcourse, but as far as the positioning of the swords this is what springs to mind for me.
(Still searching for my marseilles-deck though so all I went on is the scans.)

[smleite]

Rusty Neon, I like your suggestion that “the Queen of Swords is the human counterpart of her superhuman trump sister, Justice”. I wouldn’t say that both cards are intrinsically linked, but surely it is very important to study them together. And it’s the word “human” that strikes me the most, here.

In another thread (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...407#post413407), I wrote a quick consideration on how the Queen of Swords reminds me of the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland, a bit too eager to order a beheading – better yet, to behead someone herself. I also mentioned I had the impression that “to behead or not to behead” was solely her decision, meaning her decision was probably based only in her feelings, her point of view, her discernment, while Justice has access to, and ponders, every aspect of the question before making such decision. Well, but your reflections on the verticality of their swords make me rethink this entire thing… if the Queen of Sword’s blade is not yet in TDC, then it seems she is keeping her judgment in suspension, as if waiting for something. Waiting for more information, since she doesn’t have the kind of large vision that Justice surely has? Whereas Justice is already in action, because her judgement is simultaneous to the acts she judges upon?

I don’t even know if the Queen of Sword’s task is to judge and/or to execute any kind of justice. In fact, I still prefer to see her as “human”, in the sense that she seems to be ready to act according to “her” desires and personal views, instead of acting in a universal sense.

[Moonbow]

I see the Queen of Swords and Justice very differently to each other although the fact that they both hold the sword in their right hand could show a determination, and their clothes are very similar in that they have a red dress and blue robe (the only Queen with this combination).

The Queen looks sad, worried or reminiscing (or all three)... and I can't help thinking that the way she observes the sword and holds her pregnant stomach as well, is somehow connected... perhaps she is thinking of the future king, or worried about it's birthright but there definately seems to be something on her mind.

Justice, on the other hand, holds a gaze of forthrightness and shows no sign of emotion (like the Queen does). This is also emphasised because she is focussed straight ahead at the reader. Looking to the left or right would perhaps not show her as fair, as though she was under another influence. Holding a sword in one hand and scales in the other shows physical strength and perhaps we are to consider this as mental strength as well for the task that she undertakes. Does she have one scale balanced on her knee? Always looks like it to me.

I am looking at the Grimaud specifically.