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Hi Sulis!

Of course you're welcome!

So I've probably seen the Devil too much in the narrow christian context. He has once been Pan, yes, I remember. Well, I remember to have heard it- I'm too young to remember those times Life must have been less charged with sin then...

Crowley uses an ibex by the way. Or a goat- I've never been quite clear about that. Probably it stands for Capricorn, whatever it is zoologically.

Sticking to negative thought patterns is certainly a motive of the devil "self-hatred", too. You can literally see the young man's self-accusations. I've read once that you stick as hard to the negative aspects of your self-perception as to the positive ones. That's clearly part of the devil for me: addiction - doing something though it is not good for you- and not even enjoying it missed to assemble the hedonism-thing again...
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Not necessarily hedonism but here's a different view of The Devil;

From ' The Tarot Handbook' - Angeles Arrien

Quote:
The Devil / Pan archetype represents the need to face whatever we might consider our bedevilments or problems with the tenacity of Capricorn, the goat, or with humour like Pan or Bacchus from Greek mythology..........This symbol reminds us that if we take our problems or bedevilments too seriously that they can ensnare us and take us off balance ...........The Devil / Pan symbol represents the need to hold on to both the qualities of mirth, stability and our centeredness in facing real or imagined problems
You may find this thread interesting http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...erstood+fellow

Love

Sulis xx
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Hi Sulis and everyone!

Thanks a lot- I had not been aware there discussions of single cards in the section "Using Tarot Cards". - Still a lot to explore!!

Just in the first post something startled me and I had to post back before I read on:

Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
[...]He brought to light (after all, Lucifer is the bringer of light) the duality of man and woman, the yin and the yang[...]
Wow! - That gives the Devil a new look in the gay context, doesn't it? What Diana mentions as positive, MUST lead to Self-Hatred now!? -Not necessarily. But the illusion is right at hand and overwhelms a lot of people. Do you have to feel guilty because you "reject" this wonderful duality of man and woman!?

Maybe this makes the Devil a challenge to gay guys to merge the "male" and "female" aspects of their own self? To come at ease with yourself and don't have to stand in front of a picture, despising yourself?

Just some thoughts. Please help me think!
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Telcontar has in his posts expressed very well what I was thinking of when I designed the card. For me, sexual obsession and materialism (as is usually shown in Devil cards) is one example of self-restricting, self-defeating and self-perpetuating thought patterns. The image of self-hatred which I put on the Gay Tarot card would be another example of the same general self-restricting tendencies, but placed in a specifically gay context. In other words, I looked at the field of typical gay experiences and tried to find one which carried the suggestions of self-restriction, and settled on this concept and image as one which seemed to fit.

In the Gay Tarot, the meaning of sexual obsession which is sometimes given to traditional Devil cards could probably be more easily covered by the Gay Tarot Moon card, as Glaucus has mentioned in his great post.

By the way, I've always found it interesting that in decks where many of the "standard" images and concepts are changed, it often happens that the "missing" elements can be found in other cards.

-- Lee
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gay tarot study group


I'd be interested in this. When I get hold of a copy of Gay Tarot, obviously. Lee, perhaps YOU can help here-do you know when it will be available from amazon.co.uk ? Or amazon.com ? Having said that, telcontar, I'm aware you are in Germany, so I'll check on amazon.de too !

I became aware of this deck a few weeks ago. Thanks, telcontar, for getting me to FOCUS on it.
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Hi rosyelf, the only thing I know about European availability is that it's available right now from alidastore.com in Italy. It should be available in the U.S. in around October, but the entry in amazon.com is confusing, it says they need to special order it or something and it will take extra time. So if you're going to order from the U.S., I would suggest tarotgarden.com instead. But since you're in Europe, it sounds like your best bet would be alidastore.com.

Good luck in finding it!

-- Lee
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Hi.

Today, dreaming of some kind of a large black cat and looking up the symbolism of panthers (there were no jaguarundis in the book about shamanisn- strange ) I came across another symbol that connects moon and sexuality. Drawing the Osho Zen Moon-card ("Prior Lifes !?) today for a daily draw kept me thinking...

In the "Gay Moon" I can see just the pleasant sides of sexuality, none of the lunacy (!) I usually connected to The Moon. That's interesting. The unconscious is very clearly there and the sea is in the back and you can see them literally drowning in their feelings. But going through the dark sides of your soul is clearly more in the Self-Hatred/Devil in this deck. With some aspects of the Emperor, too- living under the dictates of society or suffering from rejecting them. But I must say, the more I think about Moon and Devil in one line of thought, the less I can seperate them from each other. It's easier in the Gay Tarot- but I'll have to work on it with other decks.

@rosyelf: I got mine from ebay, but by now, amazon has it on stock, too. At least, amazon.de. I couldn't order from alidas not owning a credit card... But I even found it at a local bookstore. You might have this luck too!? Btw, pm is on it's way
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dear Lee and telcontar,

Thank you very much for your help. I'll be ordering the Gay Tarot in the next few weeks, so hope to chime in here with my humble opinions from time to time.

Telcontar, thank you for your email. I'll be answering shortly.

rosyelf
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Hi rosyelf!

I'm looking forward to your "humble opinions"

To come back to something I mentioned earlier, cause I thought on:

Quote:
Maybe this makes the Devil a challenge to gay guys to merge the "male" and "female" aspects of their own self? To come at ease with yourself and don't have to stand in front of a picture, despising yourself?
Do you think this is an aspect of The Lovers in this deck, too? Shade thought so (quoted from the "Gay Tarot" -thread at "Tarot Decks":

Quote:
Originally posted by Shade
Though I love the racial polarity mentioned what I think makes this version of the Lovers stand out is the union of the sun and the moon. I've seen many cards where a sun and a moon are bith pictured in the image but this is the first time i can think of where the 2 are joined in one sphere. This simple image speaks volumes about the queer sensibility of gender... the kinsey scale and the fluidity of gender and sexuality... living in a world beyond either/or polarity. very nice.
Is there anyone here who already owns the deck, anyway!?
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More on Moon, Devil and Sexuality


Sorry so much happened in this thread since last I checked (Labor Day weekend got in the way)! This also stands as an apology (excuse) for this long-ish reply.

My association of hedonism with the Tarot Devil card does indeed resonate with the pre-Christian associations of Pan, the nymph-chasing, ithyphallic god of the forest; representing the animalistic appetites of human beings (and specifically, pardon the implicit sexism, of the human male). The connection of sexuality with the Devil card of the RWS deck can also be seen by comparing it to the Lovers, in which Adam and Eve occupy the same positions in both cards, but in the Lovers their union is overseen by an angel, while in the Devil card it is overseen by... well, a devil....

It is true that the Devil in most Tarot decks is portrayed as sinister (to say the least) and even frightening. But in practice, I have found that one way the appearance of the Devil in a spread can send a reading off in the wrong direction is by forgetting that the Devil is a seducer... the Seducer, in fact... and most often enters our lives by appealing to the reflexes of our pleasure principle... drawing us in without regard for the consequences, until it is too late.

In a Gay Tarot deck, I think this theme would be particularly a propos since gay life in America (at least urban America) has often been (and sometimes rightly) characterized as a life of hedonistic excess (viz., sex and drugs), especially (though certainly not exclusively) in the wake of AIDS and its relation to unprotected sex and drug use. (The association of gay sexuality with hedonism goes at least back to the Greeks and Romans, long before AIDS or the Catholic church; I'd love to elaborate if anyone is interested!)

However, in the spirit of just the imagery in the RWS Devil (and others), the theme seems to be "imprisonment, enslavement" (Adam and Eve in chains); and for a Gay Tarot, representing this as the imprisonment of self-hatred-- and the potential bitterness from seeing "normal" straight society all around us, attempting to define where we fit in-- is equally, if not more, a propos. To many people I know whom I would consider "spiritually advanced," all worldly evil can ultimately be reduced to fear and hatred.

As far as the Moon goes, my interpretation of this card is always in the context of its contrast to the Sun. Under the Sun, everything is illuminated, bright, and exposed for all to see. Often when the Moon appears in a reading, I reference the experience of trying to see by the light of a full moon: the colors become shades of grey, and it is difficult to tell where shadows end and solid objects begin. This tends to give a somewhat sinister feeling to the Moon, which in all fairness should also symbolize the importance of dreams and the unconscious (sometimes but certainly not always sinister). This is nicely synthesized by a somewhat psychological interpretation, in which the Moon's light represents our feelings (i.e., our irrational instincts) as they illuminate (i.e., are "projected" onto) the world around us.

My impression of Lee's Moon card, with it's embracing lovers (OK, that's a euphemism), thus combines the "dreaminess" of sex with the misleading (or at least the mysterious and non-rational) perception associated with looking at things "by the light of the Moon." The association of the Moon with sexuality has never, somehow, really occurred to me, and seeing it in Lee's deck has not only called my attention to it, but also deepened my overall understanding of this card and allowed it to take on a less sinister meaning (though still mysterious and potentially confusing).

OK, I'll stop holding forth now. Sorry, I do tend to go on and on; I'm afraid I'm a natural-born lecturer, cast out of the ivory tower (hmm, never associated that with the Tarot Tower card before....interesting). Thanks for indulging me!
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