Atu XIII - Death

[Curtis Penfold]

Originally Posted by Formicida

The idea from earlier in this thread of seeing the DNA double helix in the card is interesting, and there is a certain similarity. Of course, the spiral is a universal symbol that was given new biological relevance with Watson and Crick. I would hazard a guess, based on the mitosis in the Devil and remarks in the BoT about science in general, that if Crowley had lived to 1953, he would have made use of the DNA symbolism--probably much more explicitly and accurately portrayed than what's here.

But even if the resemblance can't have been intentional, that doesn't mean that we can't use it, does it?

(I know this thread's like 2 years old, but that's worth talking about some more).

I love the idea of those little swirls Death is creating as being "DNA." But heck, the spiral is an ancient symbol of eternity, so that makes sense, too. Connecting the 2 together: Wow!


But the first time I viewed this card, I saw something weird. I first thought that skeleton was playing the guitar. Seriously, those little rings, they look like sound waves. And it makes sense with his dancing position, like he's jaming out.

Really, if you think about it, Death is all part of the dance, part of the circle of life.

In fact, it is Death as transformation that makes music what it is, Death as transformation that makes life what it is, Death as transformation that makes eternity what it is. In essence, Death is everything

[Curtis Penfold]

Does anybody else see something in the circles coming out of Death's sickle in the Thoth deck?

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by Curtis Penfold

Death is everything

But notice that he wears the Crown of Osiris. He rules the four elements, but not the fifth un-changing element of Spirit that constantly moves through the transformations of Death, from one phase to another like an undulating Serpent.

[Curtis Penfold]

Originally Posted by Aeon418

But notice that he wears the Crown of Osiris. He rules the four elements, but not the fifth un-changing element of Spirit that constantly moves through the transformations of Death, from one phase to another like an undulating Serpent.

I recognize Osiris as King of the Underworld. He's generally considered a god of rebirth. I've read that Ra can't leave the Underworld until he has embraced Osiris. Sometimes, the Egyptians would look at new plants growing and see Osiris, kind of a symbol of this rebirthing process.


I'm confused about the connection between Osiris and the four elements. I can see what you're saying (earlier in the thread it talks about how the snake has a change of eye colors like it's just about to shed its skin), however, who's to say the Spirit doesn't transform, doesn't die. Wouldn't that kind of be like Christian conversion or Crowley's Abyss?

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by Curtis Penfold

I'm confused about the connection between Osiris and the four elements.

Osiris is the symbolic god of the Outer order. He is attributed to Malkuth, with it's division into the four elements.

Originally Posted by Curtis Penfold

however, who's to say the Spirit doesn't transform, doesn't die. Wouldn't that kind of be like Christian conversion or Crowley's Abyss?

Christian conversion??? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Are you thinking of some kind mystical death of the old self and resurrection into a higher state of being? (Saul transforms into Paul?) That's old aeon stuff and definitely not the philosophy that informs the Thoth tarot.

That would indeed be to make the whole curse of separate existence ridiculous, a senseless and inexcusable folly. It would throw us back on the dilemma of Manichaeism. The idea of incarnations "perfecting" a thing originally perfect by definition is imbecile.

The great dramatic death and resurrection theme of the old aeon is now seen as just a recuring cycle in the continuous journey called Becoming.

[Curtis Penfold]

Originally Posted by Aeon418

Christian conversion??? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Are you thinking of some kind mystical death of the old self and resurrection into a higher state of being? (Saul transforms into Paul?) That's old aeon stuff and definitely not the philosophy that informs the Thoth tarot.

The great dramatic death and resurrection theme of the old aeon is now seen as just a recuring cycle in the continuous journey called Becoming.

Yeah, I was talking "Saul to Paul."

What you're describing from Crowley's New Aeon philosophy makes sense as a world view.

However, how does Osiris fit into it? Wouldn't Osiris be part of the "old aeon" with his life, death and resurrection? Why did Crowley pick him to represent Death?

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by Curtis Penfold

However, how does Osiris fit into it? Wouldn't Osiris be part of the "old aeon" with his life, death and resurrection? Why did Crowley pick him to represent Death?

This is a big topic and I don't have time to respond to it fully right now. But to point you in the right direction remember what I said previously about sunrise and setset and the discovery that it is really just an illusion created by the rotation of the planet? Our realization of this fact, even though it expanded our horizons, did not mean that the daily solar cycle ceased to exit. But one very important thing has changed. The significance previously attached to the solar cycle is radically altered once you realize that the sun does not die at night or be re-born in the morning. What we used to think of as the death of the sun is nothing of the sort. The sun is always shining. When it's night here, it's day somewhere else. The solar death was just an illusion.

These same ideas behind the solar cycle influenced our conceptions of deity and consequently ourselves. For the belief goes that if we immitate the life of a patron deity (like Jesus) we can pull off the same death and resurrection trick. But now that our conception of the solar cycle has been proven to be nothing more than a defect of perception, how does that reflect of the deities that imitated that same flawed perception?

Death implies change and individuality if thou be
THAT which hath no person, which is beyond the
changing, even beyond changelessness, what hast
thou to do with death?

I'll comment on the meaning of Osiris and his missing Phallus later when I've got more time. It may get you started to consider that the Phallus symbolises the spiritual creative principle that we lose through incarnation. The same thing that we must re-member (punn intended ) to realise the purpose behind our lives (True Will) and wake up from the sleep of death that we mistakenly believe is life.

AL II:17

Hear me, ye people of sighing!
The sorrows of pain and regret
Are left to the dead and the dying,
The folk that not know me as yet.

[Always Wondering]

How did I miss this conversation?

Originally Posted by Aeon418

It may get you started to consider that the Phallus symbolises the spiritual creative principle that we lose through incarnation.

Huh?
I don't understand this.

AW

[Curtis Penfold]

Originally Posted by Always Wondering

Huh?
I don't understand this.

AW

After Osiris was brutally murdered and torn apart by his brother Set, Isis (and Thoth in some myths) brought together the pieces of Osiris. They had every piece EXCEPT Osiris's phallus.

Isis took a stick, used her magic powers, made it into a phallus, and then made love to her brother/husband. From the conception of Isis (in the form of some type of bird...a kite?) and the resurrected Osiris came the birth of Horus.

I've always found the partial collection of Osiris's body to be strange, but I do like the reinterpretation Aeon's putting up.

[Always Wondering]

Thanks Curtis. And thank-you for reviving this thread

I was wondering what creative principle we lost durning incarnation.

AW