History of the High Priestess

[Pocono Platypus]

"It was once considered the language of literature and culture in Europe - at the time of the troubadours, who coexisted with the Cathars in a vital, open society, before it was attacked. It's very beautiful."

The poetry of Occitan is very free-ing, composed when this nascent language was at its most fluid. If you know any one of these languages -- Latin, French, Spanish, and Italians -- then you can follow the Occitan poetry, bit by bit. But just to say it out loud, just imagining what it might sound like, or what it might mean -- that is very good.

[roppo]

I find an image of Dame Doctryne (perhaps), at least a woman with triple tiara of the middle of 15th century. It Is in the manuscript of John Lydgate's "Troy books" now in custody of Rylands MS of Manchester University Library. This I scanned and uploaded in my website. It's a black and white photo.

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~elfindog/gdfotne.htm

She is with "the quene of fortune". The scene is from the opening of Book 2.
This surely must be interesting to you all.

[wandking]

I just took the time to read a couple of those links you posted... the two I've read are excellant. Thanks for the info.

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by roppo

I find an image of Dame Doctryne (perhaps), at least a woman with triple tiara of the middle of 15th century. It Is in the manuscript of John Lydgate's "Troy books" now in custody of Rylands MS of Manchester University Library. [...]
She is with "the quene of fortune". The scene is from the opening of Book 2.
This surely must be interesting to you all.

Once again an interesting picture, roppo, thanks. And intriguing to find those two paired so explicitly.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by wandking

I just took the time to read a couple of those links you posted... the two I've read are excellant. Thanks for the info.

I'm glad you like them. She is a figure I have returned to again and again, as I have learned more about her.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by roppo

I find an image of Dame Doctryne (perhaps), at least a woman with triple tiara of the middle of 15th century. It Is in the manuscript of John Lydgate's "Troy books" now in custody of Rylands MS of Manchester University Library. This I scanned and uploaded in my website. It's a black and white photo.

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~elfindog/gdfotne.htm

She is with "the quene of fortune". The scene is from the opening of Book 2.
This surely must be interesting to you all.

Thank you very much roppo - she is wonderful. I have added her to my Papessa file.

I don't know how to interpret her here exactly.

My first thought - could it be just a Pope without a beard? Then I noticed that her hood goes up under the tiara, which only occurs in Papesse depictions - a Pope doesn't have a "hood" over his head, under the tiara.

So which Papesse is she? The rest of the figures seem commonplace - kings, warriors, regular people, all about to be sucked up by the wheel.

Unfortunately, the relevant lines of the poem at
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/troy2frm.htm
are merely summarized, so I don't know if Lydgate (or the Lydgatian) mentions this figure in the poem.

(The introduction, with a list of manuscripts including Rylands English 1, is at
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/troyint.htm)

What Papesse is she?

I don't think she represents the Church here, since that is an allegory or an abstraction, and Fortune is about real people.

So the only figure I can think of is Pope Joan, whose story is told as a Fortune story - she rises up, only to have a spectacular fall: when she gives birth and is discovered to be a woman. So I would guess that the Papesse here is Pope Joan. No need for the normal Pope-with-baby iconography, since the picture is crammed full and it isn't all about her anyway.

Or she could be Dame Doctryne, of course, as you suggest. She seems far enough from the wheel that she is in no danger of getting caught up in it, so maybe she is standing aside, telling the story.

Fascinating picture - I hope to find a color copy somewhere.

There is a book which might seem to have the pictures -
http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf....oks_staff.html

"Busse, Wilhelm G. (ed.). John Lydgate, The Sege of Troye.
Colour Microfiche Edition of the Manuscript Manchester,
The John Rylands University Library, MS English
1. Introduction to text and manuscript by Wilhelm G. Busse.
Codices illuminati medii aevi 38.
München: Edition Helga Langenfelder 1998.

Introduction deals with “The Matter of Troy in England”, “The Poet and his Background”, “Lydgate’s The Sege of Troye”, “The Manuscripts”, and “The John Rylands University Library MS English 1”; it offers a description of the miniatures in MS English 1, together with a selected bibliography of text and manuscript."

[roppo]

Hi Ross and everyone,

I'm glad you like the "Doctryne(?) and Fortune". I'm sorry I can't supply fuller explanation for them. I am no speciallist on Lydgate (indeed he was a nightmare in my student days, you know...).

The identity of "Doctryne" -- I'm not sure. But I am under the impression she is not Pope Joan because I see no reason of her being there; it is a "Troy book". Rather she is a kind of virtue, Doctryne or Faith or Papacy etc, with whose power man can escape from the rule of merciless Fortune. H. R. Patch wrote in "The Goddess Fortuna in Medieval Literature"(1927) that Christian God and Fortuna could collaborate in punishing the sinners by rotating the Wheel; we have to pray to Jesus Christ for emacipation from the Wheel. Such expressions can be found in the passages in "Renart the Fox", Patch said.

I'll go on searching images. Seems I'm "on the wheel"

[Fulgour]

La Papess isn't meant to represent a historical figure,
or the embodiment of an institution or belief system.
She appears as she does in order to remain unknown.

[full deck]

Originally Posted by roppo

. . . that Christian God and Fortuna could collaborate in punishing the sinners by rotating the Wheel; we have to pray to Jesus Christ for emancipation from the Wheel. . .

That's interesting in that it reminds one of the "wheel of Karma" idea from Buddhism, whose binding principle being that of "ignorance" that ties one to the "wheel" of suffering.

[wandking]

this site you posted really got me going... What do you make of that solar cross the Priestess holds on this Tarot card? http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html