thoughts on tropical & sidereal systems

Some random thoughts to kick start discussion:

From what I've read, Vedics focus more on prediction, house rulers, house placements (which don't change w/a switch from sidereal-tropical). b/c siderealists can be so accurate, one can infer that sign is not important in accurate predictions. Honestly, if transiting Pluto is in a sign aspecting a personal planet, I really don't care what sign he's in since he's been there for so long.

However, just from my own experience, I have found signs to be invaluable in getting a psychological profile of an individual. I also have found the sign of the prog moon to be helpful.

For those interested, an online group of western astro that uses sidereal:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sidereal_Astrology/

Here's an article that is not exactly on the tropical/sidereal debate, but outlines the differences b/w jyotish (which uses sidereal) and western astro:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/astrology/886998.html

Reply to isthmus nekoi

Thanks for posting this thread, and also for the Sidereal site which I have just joined. As you may have noticed I use these techniques quite extensively but did not know of that site. I expect to be very active there.

Dave.

Thanks Isthmus, Like Dave I've joined the Yahoo group but as someone who has not really explored these areas I'm going to take something of a back seat and see what I can learn from the threads.

As far as I understand it, and Dave knows much more about it than me, Vedic Astrology was greatly influenced the introduction of Greek Astrological techniques during the period of Alexander the Great, whose conquests took him into India. In some sense then, Vedic techniques may give us an insight into how Western Astrology was practiced nearly 2400 years ago.

On the issue of prediction, I'd just point out that up till the sevententh century Western Astrology focused on prediction and that there are clearly very accuurate predicitions by such Astrologers as Lilly - indeed he was interrogated by Parliament because his predictions regarding the Great Fire of London were so accurate they thought he might have been involved in a plot to start it.

Western Astrology tends to have retreated from predicting specific external events and I'm not sure we're comparing like with like any more when we talk about the predictive capabilities of both systems. Indeed if the Sidereal approach has a much better track record on prediction (which I think we will explore) is this due to the 'loss' of traditional techniques and approaches which still survive in some format in Vedic Astrology, or possibly that we have altered the meaning of signs so much through the psychological approach that we are no longer comparing like with like when we talk of the characteristics of, say, Cancer under both systems. In this context Dave's use of sidereal techniques to get effective results in a Tropical Zodiac will be interesting to hear.

Edited to add:

I've just read through the second link Isthmus posted and see that there is a difference between Western 'sign' and Vedic 'constellation' clearly Aries sign and Aries constellation are not the exactly the same.

Other points clearly reflect their Greek origins, though the author seems to be unaware of this (there are also one or two errors in the piece). However the whole sign house system was used by the Greeks and traditional Western Astrology did use whole sign aspects (Such as a planet in Aries being in opposition to one in Libra, irrespective of degree). So it is possible that success differences are not so much a product of the different zodiacs but of the techniques that have survived.

I'm already being attracted to Vedic, they don't use Uranus Neptune and Pluto and therefore don't have all that psychobabble

Here's some links regarding Cyril Fagan (whose books seem sadly unavailabe in the UK at the moment)

http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/cyrilfagan/cyrilfagan.asp

http://cura.free.fr/docum/02fagan.html

http://www.radical-astrology.com/irish/fagan/bowser.html

There are many more internet references.

Thanks

Minderwiz, thanks for the references. Reviewing them made me realize that when I started closely following Fagan in American Astrology I was actually reading reprintings from two decades earlier.

Two incidents started me investigating Sidereal astrology. Noel Tyl published a series of books in the mid-70's that were paperbacks, twelve in all. Each covered a distinct area of astrology and were extremely well written and also motivational as Noel was/is a highly ardent proponent of astrology. One of the last books in the series was about Astrology in Modern Times wherein he reviewed a number of new or different approaches to astrology. One chapter was about the use of sidereal techniques. The chart used in that chapter was astounding to look at. It made an impression on me.

I started looking into sidereal references. This led me to my second discovery. A French astrologer, Volgaine(?) had written a large book on Solar Returns which was very involved and tedious to read, IMHO. In the back of the book he made a comment that struck me as being highly contrary to what the bulk of the book was about. He said something to the effect that Solar Returns were really great tools but that they became increasingly vague as one progressed age-wise -- to the point that they seemed to lose their value at some point.

Those two reading-events triggered in my mind that there were sidereal articals appearing in American Astrology magazine. I ordered a book through them, then more and more. At that time, my astrology group (about 23 people who met weekly for seven years without stop) was hosting Robert Pellitier (author of Planets in Aspect and Planets in Houses) as a guest speaker each week. After being "into" sidereal astrology for a year or so, several of us could tell Bob what planets would be angular in a chart before we did the chart. Several of us went on to do some great stuff with our Sidereal studies.

That is what led me into Sidereal astrology. Now, because many in our group were not as mentally agile as a few of us were, we had to use the Tropical zodiac and ephemerides to cast our charts. This ment that we simply had to incorporate the precession factor. No big deal, just a simple added step. Soon I was doing stand-up presentations all over New England, glancing at a chart made up by an associate and just reading off predictions like out of a book. It was a lot of fun. So, those seven years totally changed my approach to, and use of, astrology.

I'll follow up on the links you provided and download some more material. I have all the sidereal stuff from American Astrology, but there might be more treasure from Cyril Fagan. Thanks. Dave.

Dave,

Thanks for the insights into how you came across sidereal techniques. When I did a search for Cyril Fagan a lot of references came up, so it may well be worth following up some of the others.

Over the last few months, despite a heavy workload, I've been getting more interested in the history of Astrology and especially the work that has been done to unearth ancient Greek techniques and approaches. As these span the time when Tropical and Sidereal approaches seem to have separated I'm intrigued to learn more about the sidereal approach ane whether the traditional techniques are more properly understood in a sidereal context.

You're both welcome for the link - the great thing about Yahoo is that you can subscribe to a digest - and get all the posts delivered to your inbox in one easy e-mail.

Minderwiz said:

Other points clearly reflect their Greek origins, though the author seems to be unaware of this (there are also one or two errors in the piece).

Click to expand...

Oh dear. For the sake of reference, would you mind pointing out the errors?

The author says that several thousand years ago the two zodiacs were the same - Which I understand to mean they shared the Same Aries point - this last happened in 221AD, which whilst more than 1000 years ago is not 'several' thousand years ago.

There's also a claim that Sidereal Astrology was developed and grew up in ancient India - Sidereal Astrology can be found in early Greek charts which predate Alexander's invasion of India (and the export of Astrology to that country) to say nothing of it's use well before the 5th Century BCE in other countries Rob Hand points out that the earliest Babylonian birth charts used the sidereal zodiac. Babylonian Astrology was introduced into Greece around the 5th to 4th Centuries BCE and seems to have travelled from there to India. There doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that it was invented in India and exported the other way.

There are a number of further essays and debates on the issue at:

http://www.widgetsworld.co.uk/free/astrology-sidereal.php

I've not read all of these so it's possible there's a counter argument.

Thanks for the links!

Technical Question For Dave

You've said several times that you use Solar Returns corrected for the precessional factor and I was wondering exactly how you did this. We both use the same software - Halloran's AstrolDeluxe, so I've tried to do this on my own chart and would appreciate your comments on the steps.

If it's as simple as I think it is, you select 'Return chart' from the options menu and carry out a Solar Return for the last birthday (adjusting for location if you think it necessary) and simply remember to click the radar button for Sidereal Zodiac.

You then interpret the resulting chart (the 'difficult' bit)

In my case the time difference is that the Tropical Solar Return occurs some 19 hours 15 minutes before the Sidereal Solar Return (which shows just how old I am for those who want to work it out ). Hence the claim that as we grow older the Solar Return becomes less and less accurate as a predictive tool when using the Tropical Zodiac.

PS I know that you are not keen on House systems but do you use a particular House system for this exercise or not bother at all which one is selected and simply concentrate on the Sun, planetary aspects and angular planets?

Edited to Add,

I've just tried this technique on someone who is currently experiencing marriage difficulties. Her Tropical Solar Return really didn't say anything about this and I've been looking for alternative indicators. The Sidereal Solar Return has the Sun clearly in the seventh, conjunct Mars (in the eighth) and with a tight opposition to Uranus and an even tighter semisquare to Venus. The Seventh ruler is the Moon in the Ascendant also inconjunct Venus and inconjunct Jupiter (her natal seventh ruler and thus significator or her husband). The Moon is separating from a conjunction with Neptune. Now that describes the situation that has developed since her Solar return with a high degree of accuracy.

Yes, that seems to be the right approach

Minderwiz . . . and others interested.
I'll make my answer a little lengthy just so that we can all clearly understand what should result in terms of how a precession corrected Solar Return would be different from a tropical chart.

1) The "precession factor" is merely the difference between the apparent position of the spring equinox point against the star field versus the sidereal Aries "0" point. Due to the earths long term axis wobble, this difference increases about 1 degree every 72 years.

2) Over the past couple of decades the Siderealists and the Vedic schools of thought have apparently broken ranks in terms of defining which measuring points are appropriate for the Sidereal zodiac. We, however, don't have to worry about "which" sidereal zodiac to use or who is "right." We can easily ignore the issue by sticking with the Tropical zodiac as a measuring tool and just adopt the use of the precession factor.

3) As Minderwiz noted, you start with a standard tropical natal chart. Using your software, and using that standard natal chart, you ask for a Solar Return chart for the year in question. In doing this, you also direct the software program to calculate it in the Sidereal Zodiac. Since the original chart was "Tropical", the resulting Solar Return chart will remain Tropical in appearance but, BIG BUT, the Sun's position will be slightly different. That position will have shifted by about 1/72 of a degree for each year since birth.

4) Also, as Minderwiz noted, the resulting chart angles will be quite different from a tropical Solar Return. In his case, Minderwiz noted that the chart seemed to show planets at/near the angles and angular houses that were symbolic of the actual situation the subject was experiencing. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING ASPECTS ABOUT THIS PROCESS. ASTROLOGY SEEMS TO WORK ALL OF A SUDDEN IN VERY OBVIOUS AND DIRECT WAYS.

Now to answer another of Minderwiz's questions. What house system to use? I often use the Campanus system but I wouldn't insist that thats the best for this type of work. The only concern is to use a system that uses the ASC and MC angles and to avoid any Equal House system or system that moves the ASC to a right angle to the MC. This very dynamic astrological approach to Solar Returns really focuses upon using the angles and angular house zones.

If anyone wishes to continue using houses and all of the classical aspects, they will find a lot of astrologers do this. I tend not to. I find that the whole story is in the angles.

In terms of aspects, I would suggest using any planet near an angle or in an angular house, then start with conjunctions, oppositions, squares and one "new to many of you" aspect -- the paran-square. A paran square is simply two planets that are each more or less equidistant from adjacent angles. Being near an angle means that they will tend to cross the ascending or culminating or setting or nadir angles twice each day. The fact that when one rises and the other will hit the MC at the same time, for example, seems to given them added strength for the location of that chart.

Now, I'll ask Minderwiz to check one more thing from his first precession corrected Solar Return. Determine the arc from the ASC to the MC, then apply that same arc from the MC towards the Descendant side of the chart. Mark that point. I call it a "Co-Descendant". I use this as a third axis. If any planet is "angular" or near this new point I would suggest interpreting it as being an open door where whatever that planet represents can walk into your life uninvited and mess things up for better or worse. If its applicable, try it and tell me what you see.

Dave.