Holbein's Dance of Death

Dark Inquisitor · 09-03-2005

Holbein's Dance of Death , which can be seen here,:

http://www.godecookery.com/macabre/holdod/holdod.htm

seems to have some tarot echoes in it . Which may or may not provide insights into old tarot images. For example, clicking on the Idiot Fool brings a familiar someone described :

"XLIII. The Idiot Fool
He is mocking Death, by putting his finger in his mouth, and at the same time endeavoring to strike him with his bladder-bauble. Death smiling, and amused at his efforts, leads him away in a dancing attitude, playing on a bag-pipe."

Ew. Perhaps our Fool's bag is a "bladder-bauble" of some kind?
That Blind Man sure does look like a Hermit to me. And the Waggoner is going nowhere now that Death's got him.

Fulgour · 09-03-2005

Minchiate Fool (sporting bladder-bauble):

http://www.tarothermit.com/etruria.jpg

According to the cultural models of The Renaissance, the 'age' during
which divination by using Tarot flourished in most European countries,
this choice does not seem to match the neo Platonic model of woman
as the centre of the universe, being the only living creature endowed
with thought. The Renaissance, though, was not a hyper-rational age.

Huck · 10-03-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Inquisitor

Holbein's Dance of Death , which can be seen here,:

http://www.godecookery.com/macabre/holdod/holdod.htm

This is a nice link, thanks.

Emeraldgirl · 10-03-2005

Wow thanks for that link I am a huge history buff and Holbein appears a lot in Tudor England. Loved the cards but I had a huge urge to colour them in

Dark Inquisitor · 10-03-2005

Unfortunately, no Magician that I can see . A nun, an abbess, no Papess. The Judge is crooked though , about to take a bribe. There is an astrologer , as has the Vieville deck, and Eve holds a distaff in the Consequences of the Fall , as does the woman in the Moon card of the Vieville.
The Drunkards mentions intemperate feasting in a brothel - death is doing the pouring there instead of an angel. I like to think of the Gamesters as representative of the average tarot user of the time .

Huck · 10-03-2005

Actually it's more similar to a "profession" deck, which in playing card history is a category itself just as Tarot is a category. Johannes von Rheinfelden knew already a "professions deck" 1377, chess literature in 14th century knew such sequences, the Hofämterspiel is a deck, that we can see (ca. 1455). The Mantegna Tarocchi 1-10 shows professions or social classes. Specific professions were connected to the seven planets, the professions are then shown as children Saturn, Jupiter etc.

http://trionfi.com/0/c/01/
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/Hofaemterspiel/index.html
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/Mantegna/
http://trionfi.com/0/c/01/

Mitelli, who made a Tarot deck in 17th century, made also very interesting profession sequences:
http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01865.htm
Jeremias Woff 1690
http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01998.htm
This 18th century deck is called "Fortunetelling", but actually it is "profession"
http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01436.htm

Jeannette · 10-03-2005

One "tarotists" take on Holbein's DoD can be found here:

http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/...le=simulachres

Also see Kaplan III, pp. 158, 162-163.

-- Jeannette
The Tarot Garden

Dark Inquisitor Citizen Join Date: 30 May 2002 Location: in the darkened parlor.. Posts: 2,149	Holbein's Dance of Death Holbein's Dance of Death , which can be seen here,: http://www.godecookery.com/macabre/holdod/holdod.htm seems to have some tarot echoes in it . Which may or may not provide insights into old tarot images. For example, clicking on the Idiot Fool brings a familiar someone described : "XLIII. The Idiot Fool He is mocking Death, by putting his finger in his mouth, and at the same time endeavoring to strike him with his bladder-bauble. Death smiling, and amused at his efforts, leads him away in a dancing attitude, playing on a bag-pipe." Ew. Perhaps our Fool's bag is a "bladder-bauble" of some kind? That Blind Man sure does look like a Hermit to me. And the Waggoner is going nowhere now that Death's got him. __________________ drinking blueberry tea in the crystal room ..

09-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

Dark Inquisitor Citizen Join Date: 30 May 2002 Location: in the darkened parlor.. Posts: 2,149	Unfortunately, no Magician that I can see . A nun, an abbess, no Papess. The Judge is crooked though , about to take a bribe. There is an astrologer , as has the Vieville deck, and Eve holds a distaff in the Consequences of the Fall , as does the woman in the Moon card of the Vieville. The Drunkards mentions intemperate feasting in a brothel - death is doing the pouring there instead of an angel. I like to think of the Gamesters as representative of the average tarot user of the time . __________________ drinking blueberry tea in the crystal room ..

10-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

Huck Citizen Join Date: 02 Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 2,332	Actually it's more similar to a "profession" deck, which in playing card history is a category itself just as Tarot is a category. Johannes von Rheinfelden knew already a "professions deck" 1377, chess literature in 14th century knew such sequences, the Hofämterspiel is a deck, that we can see (ca. 1455). The Mantegna Tarocchi 1-10 shows professions or social classes. Specific professions were connected to the seven planets, the professions are then shown as children Saturn, Jupiter etc. http://trionfi.com/0/c/01/ http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/Hofaemterspiel/index.html http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/Mantegna/ http://trionfi.com/0/c/01/ Mitelli, who made a Tarot deck in 17th century, made also very interesting profession sequences: http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01865.htm Jeremias Woff 1690 http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01998.htm This 18th century deck is called "Fortunetelling", but actually it is "profession" http://trionfi.com/01/j/i/gambler_ru/d01436.htm __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk" Last edited by Huck; 10-03-2005 at 08:04.

10-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

Fulgour Citizen Join Date: 10 Jun 2004 Location: slumbrin in the windrows of the hours... Posts: 7,828	Minchiate Fool (sporting bladder-bauble): http://www.tarothermit.com/etruria.jpg According to the cultural models of The Renaissance, the 'age' during which divination by using Tarot flourished in most European countries, this choice does not seem to match the neo Platonic model of woman as the centre of the universe, being the only living creature endowed with thought. The Renaissance, though, was not a hyper-rational age.

09-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Emeraldgirl Citizen Join Date: 01 Mar 2005 Location: Floating in an ocean of dreams Posts: 3,689	Wow thanks for that link I am a huge history buff and Holbein appears a lot in Tudor England. Loved the cards but I had a huge urge to colour them in

10-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

Jeannette Citizen Join Date: 20 Oct 2001 Location: West Des Moines, IA Posts: 2,297	One "tarotists" take on Holbein's DoD can be found here: http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/...le=simulachres Also see Kaplan III, pp. 158, 162-163. -- Jeannette The Tarot Garden

10-03-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #7

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