The Enneagram and the Tarot

I know the Enneagram is not a tool for divination, yet I still find it useful to choose an Enneagram Type and meditate on its 'energies' (how it manifests itself, how it flows into certain other Types etc.) - after all, the Enneagram sets out to describe archetypal patterns in humanity, and isn't that the ultimate focus of many practices of divination? Also, the Enneagram makes sense to me, but the Tarot is less clear; I can see the faintest glimpses of wisdom in the Tarot and was hoping by linking the cards to the Enneagram I could clarify said wisdom. I guess I'm a total newbie with the Tarot and a shameless Enneagram junkie...

I was just wondering if anyone could see any link between the spiritual side of the Enneagram and the cards of the Tarot. The main problem seems to be that the Enneagram is fundimentally '3-based' whereas the Tarot is fundimentally '4-based', or at least binary. The Runes (the Elder Futhark) are '3-based' and '4-based', so perhaps that is a better starting point...

Maybe I should start with the suits:

Cups = Emotions = Enneagram Types 2, 3, 4
Swords = Intellect = Enneagram Types 5, 6, 7
Pentacles = Body = Enneagram Types 8, 9, 1

2 of Cups = Healthy Type 2? (Love)
4 of Cups = Average Type 4? (Longing)

Enneagram Type 2 and Enneagram Type 4 are naturally linked, so that might work...anyway, that leaves Wands, which sort of goes with the Aggressive Types - 3, 7, 8...

Any thoughts are appreciated!
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Well, you've found another shameless enneagram junkie here. (5w4).
I've been using tarot for nine years and I'm nowhere near the comprehensive flowing sort of knowledge of it that I've gotten from studying the dynamics of the enneagram.

The matching up of the suits which you suggested might work. But of course, many cards would be left out that way. I'd have to think more about trying to correlate enneagram meanings with tarot before saying any more about it, but I tend to think that tarot and enneagram are not really going to have any natural one to one correlation.
Some people in their use of tarot will "program" their cards- that is, rather than use the traditional meanings, will come up with idiosyncratic ones, and then read the cards that way- and I don't see why someone couldn't just say "whenever cups come up, that will relate to a person of the feeling triad" or even have specific cards which indicate specific types, as you suggested with the two of cups. Or, when a card comes up, let the following events show what the card is supposed to mean in the future, rather than having a preset idea of it.

On the Kabbalah and Alphabets board there is a recent new thread about "nine chambers" which I couldn't make head or tail of.

I do think that the dynamics of people's personalities can sometimes be shown through the sorts of cards which come up in a reading, regardless of whether the cards are seen as having enneagram correlations or not.

I've been thinking a bit lately of trying to integrate the enneagram with divination, even about the idea of using dominoes for it. That might be too simple.
The other day I did a little spread in the nine card circle with the Haindl deck as an experiment- I don't recall what came up in all of the positions, but the magician was in position one, universe in three, eight of wands in six, king of cups in eight, princess of stones in nine, and five of swords was in position five. (Five of swords is called "defeat" in that deck.)
I don't know.

Enneagrams I have known...

http://nnk.art.pl/xorcery/xorcery/fnord/enneagram_lrg.html

http://nnk.art.pl/xorcery/img/fnord/enneagram_lrg.gif

I like the Dominos idea (not sure about Haindl).

Skysteel said:

Maybe I should start with the suits:

Cups = Emotions = Enneagram Types 2, 3, 4
Swords = Intellect = Enneagram Types 5, 6, 7
Pentacles = Body = Enneagram Types 8, 9, 1

2 of Cups = Healthy Type 2? (Love)
4 of Cups = Average Type 4? (Longing)

Enneagram Type 2 and Enneagram Type 4 are naturally linked, so that might work...anyway, that leaves Wands, which sort of goes with the Aggressive Types - 3, 7, 8...

Any thoughts are appreciated!
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Hi Skysteel,

I found your link of tarot suits to Enneagram types interesting and it's got me thinking about Astrology and Enneagrams now. Astrologically - the Cups Tarot suit represents Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces.

I am a scorpion and a 3w4 (well at least I was when I took the test four years ago. I like to think I've evolved a little since then).

So that fits in with your Cups 2, 3, 4 theory.

I had never thought to connect Enneagrams to Tarot or Astrology before. Though I can see similar character traits in the comparison.

purple_scorp

Can some explain what an Enneagram is please?

I feel I am missing out on something!

Hi, Psychic Sue.

I almost started to give an explanation in my original post, but it is a complex system, and not simply explained.
Here is a website as a jumping off point: http://www.9types.com/homepage.actual.html

I have studied the enneagram for about eight years, and it is a huge part of my thinking in all of my interactions with people.

What it basically is, is a personality typing system which types people according to their basic motivations, rather than by their outward traits.

I reccomend reading a book or two about it to learn more.

I do not think that the "test" which is often shown on websites is really an accurate way of judging what one's type is- because most "personality tests" ask about what one does, rather than why one does it.
I believe that the most accurate way of finding out one's own type is to read the descriptions of the type dynamics. Most people can instantly recognize their own type (threes sometimes are an exception to that- because of the dynamics of their type, they are more "changeable" as purple scorp alluded to.)

I do not believe that people change type. The enneagram system is unlike other personality typing systems such as Meyers- Briggs in that regard. Again, it is about motivation, and what follows from that- it goes from the inside out, rather than the outside in.

The enneagram symbol shows where each type falls in relation to the other types. Within the enneagram system there is a dynamic of "integration" and "disintegration" by which the types are related- when a person of each type becomes more balanced, they take on more of the characteristics of their integration point (the integration point of 3 is 6). When a person of each type is under stress, they show characteristics like their disintegration point ( the disintegration point of 3 is 9).
Added nuance is provided by the wing, which is what the w in 3w4 stands for.
There are two numbers to the side of each number, and each person tends to favor one of those two as their secondary favored motivational type. For This adds flavor and a kind of emotional undertow to their basic type. The wing does not change, everyone tends to favor only one wing, and only the numbers to either side of each number can be called that number's wing.

The basic reason for the nine types is the division of people by the primary motivations of thinking, feeling, and acting. Everyone does all of these things, of course, but people tend to favor one over the other, and to do that first. 5, 7, and 6 think first. 9, 8, and 1 act first. 2, 3, and 4 feel first.

It is also considered to be a spiritual system, and there is a lot of mythology surrounding the genesis of The Enneagram as a guide to the deeper spiritual/archetypal dynamics of human beings.

It works very well as a system to help one understand one'sself and other people.

If anyone has any more specific questions, let me know.

Wow! Thanks so much for that!

Hoorah! Something else I can obssess about for weeks to come!

I love this forum, you learn so much.

Thanks again Dreamer,

Sue

Edit : I did the test on the site which put me as a type 3. I don't see myself like this. I suspect that everyone is a mix of all types, as you say, and also changing circumstances would affect how one behaves. I am really interested in this now - I will buy a book, definately!

To clarify: and this is a very common mistake people make- everyone is not a mix of all types.
When I mentioned that "everyone does all of these things" I meant that everyone thinks, feels, and acts. I did not mean that everyone has aspects of all of the types.

What aspects of other types one really has is based upon what one's actual type is. (The disingtegration/integration points and the wing are the alteranate type characteristics which a person will actually manifest in their actions.)
Changing circumstances absolutely will determine how one behaves. But one will behave according to one's real type dynamics and integration/disintegration points. It is not a free for all, or a grab bag. It is predictable.

One reason why people often think they identify with all of the types is that they falsely associate a few keywords which were found in a test with what the types are really like.

Another reason is that 3's, who I mentioned before as being changeable, tend to "become" for others whatever others want them to be, or whatever is the most efficatious at the moment for achieving their goals. If you really are a 3, it might be hard for you to know what you are really like since you would be taking on other personae regularly possibly without really realizing it.

However, as I mentioned before, I do not think that a test is the most accurate way to determine one's own type. I believe that reading a good detailed description of the type's motivation is.

Sorry, I could go on for days about this. All for now.

The Dreamer said:

Well, you've found another shameless enneagram junkie here. (5w4).

Click to expand...

Yay! (6w5)
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The Dreamer said:

I've been using tarot for nine years and I'm nowhere near the comprehensive flowing sort of knowledge of it that I've gotten from studying the dynamics of the enneagram.

Click to expand...

As I said, I'm a Tarot newbie; some parts of the Tarot make sense to me, some parts don't. I 'get' the Major Arcana (to some extent), but the Minor Arcana is more cryptic...the Court Cards, especially, typically elude me.

The Dreamer said:

I do think that the dynamics of people's personalities can sometimes be shown through the sorts of cards which come up in a reading, regardless of whether the cards are seen as having enneagram correlations or not.

Click to expand...

I think I read somewhere that the 16 Court Cards relate to the 16 MBTI Types...? I'm an INTJ, as far as I can tell, by the way.

The Dreamer said:

I've been thinking a bit lately of trying to integrate the enneagram with divination, even about the idea of using dominoes for it. That might be too simple.

Click to expand...

Hey, whatever works! I was trying to link the Enneagram to the Hsang-Ching (at least, I think that's what it was called...like the I-Ching, but it consists of 3^4 'Tetragrams' instead of 2^6 Hexagrams).

The Dreamer said:

The other day I did a little spread in the nine card circle with the Haindl deck as an experiment- I don't recall what came up in all of the positions, but the magician was in position one, universe in three, eight of wands in six, king of cups in eight, princess of stones in nine, and five of swords was in position five. (Five of swords is called "defeat" in that deck.)
I don't know.

Click to expand...

Enneagram Type 5 = Defeat?!

The Dreamer said:

I found your link of tarot suits to Enneagram types interesting and it's got me thinking about Astrology and Enneagrams now. Astrologically - the Cups Tarot suit represents Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces.

I am a scorpion and a 3w4 (well at least I was when I took the test four years ago. I like to think I've evolved a little since then).

So that fits in with your Cups 2, 3, 4 theory.

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Hey, purple_scorp.
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I never really had much faith in Astrology...I'm a Sagittarius Sun with Gemini Moon, yet I am not an Enneagram Type 7 (which I believe fits with Sagittarians) and I am not even a Type 3 or a Type 8 (Fire Types) - Type 6 seems to be a balance between Earth and Air, which I suppose fits with Gemini...heh. I like to over-analyse.
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Also, ones Basic Type doesn't change - if you were a Type 3 four years ago, you should still be a Type 3.

psychic sue said:

Edit : I did the test on the site which put me as a type 3. I don't see myself like this. I suspect that everyone is a mix of all types, as you say, and also changing circumstances would affect how one behaves. I am really interested in this now - I will buy a book, definately!

Click to expand...

If you're serious about getting a book about the Enneagram, I would recommend Riso and Hudson's 'Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery (Revised Edition)'. It's an incredibley definitive tome, detailing extensively each Type at all Levels (from liberation to delusion, capability to neurosis) including Integration and Disintegration behaviour and all 18 Wing Sub-Types. It's a great introduction to the Enneagram but also very, very deep - you can literally open it to a random page and pull out something new, useful or meaningful every time.

*End of sales-pitch.*
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EDIT: it's commonly agreed that Types 3, 6 and 9 typically have the greatest trouble identifying themselves because their identities are more fluid than the other Types (their identities depend more on the external environment). Also, I agree with Dreamer that online tests are only partially useful; I finally settled on my Type after discussing it with people who knew me well.