How to appreciate Crowley?

Rosanne

Debra said:
I don't understand why Crowley has such appeal as a liberator, given the times we live in. It's not like he's the only, first, best, or most recent to say: Watch out boys and girls, social norms can be repressive, there's more to life than meets the eye, you can empower yourself, sex is good. ;)
:bugeyed: Oh dear.... there are more Crowleys out there??????
:laugh:

Rosanne looks at the cards and sees Frieda Harris, but I'm not sure that's much better insofar as she was his acolyte.
Hmmm Valid point- I guess because I like the deck I choose to endow Freida Harris with a personal strength- that I have no knowledge she actually had. She sure could paint with energy one would have to admit. Truthfully I use other decks for reading now- I cannot sustain the passion of it really. It is a bit like always reading Wuthering Heights everyday. A tad too much......drama.

I guess the guru approach just ain't for me.
Every Man and Woman a........guru? Well I would not make a good one- things would be changing so fast we would look like New Age Whirling Dervishes. I guess I go back to a biblical quote from Saint Mathew (which I only presume was written by him- which shows that Christians have their spin doctors too!)
Be wary of the False Prophets who come to you in the guise of sheep while at heart they are hungry wolves. You will know them by the deeds they do.
Osho- huge fleet of cars- much wealth- self proclaimed master -actions at variance with words
Crowley-No wealth- searcher-self proclaimed lots of things-actions at variance with words.
So I guess I will leave this thread now and thank everyone for their views-
it has been interesting and sort of ...fun?
Go well in Tarot and have a good day.
~Rosanne
 

Durant Hapke

Brothers, and Sisters,

Bring the evolution.

On this:

Nevada said:
If that's what Picasso's work portrayed, I'd rather see an artist express such wounding in artwork than in real life. Let's face it, we don't know how much of Stephen King's horror is an expression of his anger against real people. It's even possible he doesn't know. That's how art sometimes works. But it's also the conflict and drama in art that we find appealing. If there's no dynamic to it, we're usually bored.
Jack bird right on -- bring that.

But why examine just artists and authors?

What about each one of us?

Are the greatest of our works, our thoughts, our emotions, our loves, all to be instantly smeared with big gobs of our worse decision, worse actions, worse statements?

Is the brightness of "us" only to be viewed thought the grimy lens of our shortcomings.

I find many Jack bird people want to elevate people of talent to a higher level -- a higher plane -- make them smarter, and brighter, and better then themselves.

This might ease the pain that comes when looking at their own shortcomings... "I can't do that, or think that, because that dude over there is much smarter then I..."

Talent and insight are not spread evenly across a persons complex inner landscapes.

Each of us is a weave of light and dark, on the very simplest of levels, why else would we study the tarot?

Bring out the big "try."

When looking at the deeds or art, or writings of others, I try and look first at the works merits, then at it's passion, and lastly the person behind the curtain.

Durant "I was young, and played very hard" Hapke
 

Nevada

Durant Hapke said:
But why examine just artists and authors?

What about each one of us?

Are the greatest of our works, our thoughts, our emotions, our loves, all to be instantly smeared with big gobs of our worse decision, worse actions, worse statements?

Is the brightness of "us" only to be viewed thought the grimy lens of our shortcomings.

I find many Jack bird people want to elevate people of talent to a higher level -- a higher plane -- make them smarter, and brighter, and better then themselves.

This might ease the pain that comes when looking at their own shortcomings... "I can't do that, or think that, because that dude over there is much smarter then I..."

Talent and insight are not spread evenly across a persons complex inner landscapes.

Each of us is a weave of light and dark, on the very simplest of levels, why else would we study the tarot?

Bring out the big "try."

When looking at the deeds or art, or writings of others, I try and look first at the works merits, then at it's passion, and lastly the person behind the curtain.
What a wise and beautiful post, Durante. I couldn't agree more. I'd hate to be remembered only for my worst -- or even for my best if it seemed to elevate me beyond the human level and make others expect only the best from me 100% of the time. How exhausting would that be? And I think we do compare ourselves too much to others, and lots of our unhappiness comes from that source -- the comparison.

We're each a mixture of light and shadow, and it's the mixture that really makes any of us who we truly are.

Nevada
 

ravenest

Jeeze, you stay at home for 5 days out in the forest in your little cabin. And when you get back to town there is this big AC rave you would have got involved in ... oh well, too late now, I've read it all though ... and answered it all before elsewhere.

I feel that someone with 20 years expreince in the OTO has missed the point quiet severly. What exactly was this experience? Did you do the initiations? Did you not realise the discrepency between the high moral codes and spiritual attitudes of an OTO temple initiaton teachings compared with all the external stuff alledging what AC and OTO wre up to and what philosophy they supposedly taught!

What sort of OTO group was it ... a real one, a spurious one, OTO a la Kenneth Grant.

You seem to think that the appearence of the new Aeon has been a non-event. All I can say is - look around! And as far as it not being fully manifest, surely you must have realised that A.C.s' (and the OTO's) prime theorum is written in future tense; 'Do what thou wilt SHALL BE the whole of the Law."? (When? You shopuld have been taught that too!)

What did you expect to get out of magicK? I admit the toilet exploding is pretty funny ( a bit like the MInerval car crash). Did you really expect to see Gods and angels ... what WAS your result. Have you ever read what the aims of these operations are supposed to be? I've had quiet good success with these, my mind has expanded, I have been bought into a more holistic emotional and mental balance, the usage and control of my mind and emotions has improved. Please re-read the begining of LIber O to get the real (and instructed) reason for doing these things .. it aint to see a leg in the corner nor a whole angel:

"1. This book is very easy to misunderstand; readers are asked to use the most minute critical care in the study of it, even as we have done in its preparation.

2. In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

3. The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly these:
("a") A widening of the horizon of the mind.
("b") An improvement of the control of the mind."

And as for this bit;" By doing certain things certain results will follow." It encapsulates AC's attempted 'scientific' approach ... which leads to what appears to be your compleate mis-understanding of the moral question. (See essentials point 2.) The technical knowledge discounts morals; Postcards to Probationers.

THEOREMS
I. The world progresses by virtue of the appearance of Christs (geniuses).
II. Christs (geniuses) are men with super-consciousness of the highest order.
III. Super-consciousness of the highest order is obtainable by known methods. Therefore, by employing the
quintessance of known methods we cause the world to progress.
ESSENTIALS OF METHOD
I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.
II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.
III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than in
the words of those who attained it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration -- as taught by
Yoga and Ceremonial Magic.

But for a more holistic approach, and for a personal moral guidline, after 20 years experience, I cant believe you have not encountered Liber Librae?

Heaven help the Tibetan Budhists if you find out what goes on in their Chod rite ... or the Vedantic 5 M rite. They'll be dissed from here to Atlantis! There is a very old and traditional teaching in many cultures about the effects the social moral paradigm has on us and our journeys to enlightenment.

And I would much rather eat a sacrificed animal that has been honoured and offered than one processed in a slaughterhouse. Go to one and have a look! I did last year.

Yes .... I'm virtually flabergsted by some of the comments above!

I could go on ... but this is costing me money! So I'LL sum up briefly:

No, Crowley wasn't the wickedest man in the world that ever lived ...

he was just the naughtiest schoolboy that never grew up.
 

Grigori

ravenest said:
And I would much rather eat a sacrificed animal that has been honoured and offered than one processed in a slaughterhouse. Go to one and have a look! I did last year.

The discussion on sacrificing animals, reminds me of a quote from Anya, a character in the Buffy TV series, discussing Thanksgiving

Anya: I love a ritual sacrifice.

Buffy: It's not really one of those.

Anya: To commemorate a past event, you kill and eat an animal. It's a ritual sacrifice . . . with pie.

Puts a rather different light on how much we've "evolved" from our ancestors eh? Each year my family sacrifices two chickens and a pig in rememberance of the birth of Christ, despite a complete lack of religious observation the remainder of the year. How evolved of us...
 

ravenest

Gosh! Buffy was right on!

Yeah ... "YOU kill and eat ..."

Seriously guys! Take a trip and see who and what kills the animals you eat. THEN dis those that practise animal sacrifice (religion and cultures I mean, not your spotty suburban 'satanist' that runs over a cat in the car 'for' satan).
 

Greg Stanton

Ravenest, I was involved in the OTO, Western US, though not part of, to my knowledge, of the current US Grand Lodge. I was part of this organization for less than 5 years -- mostly because of some of the weird behavior I witnessed. The bulk of my studies have been on my own.

Yes, I expect full physical manifestation during magical rites - though not of gods or angels. The OTO rites I attended were nothing more than Masonic-style ritual -- with no physical results. Consecrated planetary talismans made in flashing colors were not effective, no measurable results. No manifestiation/communication during exactly 12 Goetic evocations. Nothing. Did not get through the Enochian stuff, but after reading through Dee's original material, I see that it bears very little relation to what the GD taught, so I'm skeptical.

Magic is an act of will. If you've got thoughts floating around in your head like "the spirits of the Goetia are actually parts of the human brain", or "it is immaterial whether these things exist or not", "I don't expect anything to actually appear", the magic wont' work -- because you don't really believe in it. You have mentally set yourself up for failure. Your will has been effectively neutered. Not only must you believe that the magic will produce real, tangible results, but there must be an underlying, logical structure behind the methods you are using. The Esoteric/Kabbalah type of approach, as taught by the GD, to my mind is so full of flaws and holes that it is insufficient as a magical system (see my comments above).

Also, it may be that I'm a direct, no-nonsense guy. I wanted to use magic(k) to help me fulfill specific goals and achieve certain ends. GD/Crowley is, essentially 22 paths and 10 pit-stops to an end-result of supposed spiritual enlightment (which I never achieved by this route, and apparently, neither did Crowley, if his conduct is any indication). I found esoteric studies to be interesting, but essentially a dead-end street. It only leads to more... esotericism. And as I've said above, viewing the world through Kabbalah-colored glasses only narrows your view of reality, rather than increases your understanding of it.

I'm not saying that Crowley's rituals were not magical in a spiritual sense. They just didn't deliver the real deal (i.e. physical manifestation/tangible physical results). And it's not that I "didn't get the point" as you say. I did, found it was not to my taste, and I've moved on.

And like I've said, I've gotten actual physical results from Hoodoo spellcraft (hey, it's direct!). I've also done one evocation from the Heptameron, using the original methods outlined in the book (no GD or Crowley), and though the results were not complete, I experienced real physical phenomena -- frightening, in fact. It's too bad I had to shut the ritual down. I'm convinced that more experience will probably bear fruit, but at this point in time I think I will probably not pursue it further. I don't want to sound like a nut-job either, and for that reason I won't discuss this further.

Anyway, so much for my magical adventure. I'm a successful person now, and I have little reason for evoking spirits. Also, I've matured, and other things in life are much more important to me.

Also, re the New Aeon. I never said it was a non-event. I only stated that Thelema has not, and will not be the religion of the "new age".

Re animal sacrifice. If you eat the animal, and it is killed with at little pain as possible, fine. I doubt, however, that Crowley chowed down on that cat after he took its life.
 

sapienza

I just wanted to pop in and say that I've been reading this thread with interest over the past weeks. I'm new to the Thoth and so this whole discussion is something I've been thinking on myself. I rarely comment in this forum as I just feel way too 'new' to contribute anything of any value. I just wanting to thank everyone for your interesting discussion.

A particular thank you to Nevada, whose words I have enjoyed immensely :)
 

Aeon418

Greg Stanton said:
Ravenest, I was involved in the OTO, Western US, though not part of, to my knowledge, of the current US Grand Lodge.
If it wasn't affiliated with US Grand Lodge, then it wasn't an OTO lodge you were involved with. You've been had by one of the various illegitimate Mc.OTO's that sprang up here, there, and everywhere. But the first step on the path is discrimination... tant pis.
Greg Stanton said:
The OTO rites I attended were nothing more than Masonic-style ritual -- with no physical results.
This just keeps getting worse all the time.

In your 20 years of experience with Crowley's works, did you never read any of the statements Crowley made concerning the OTO and how it was meant to be a New Aeonic reformulation of Freemasonry? Complaining that OTO ritual is masonic in style is about as silly as being surprised by the fact that a greengrocer sells vegetables. What were you expecting when you decided to join a quasi-masonic order?
Greg Stanton said:
GD/Crowley is, essentially 22 paths and 10 pit-stops to an end-result of supposed spiritual enlightment (which I never achieved by this route, and apparently, neither did Crowley, if his conduct is any indication).
What has Crowley's character and conduct got to do with spiritual enlightenment. Classic confusion of the planes.

You can do good works, play at being moral, act meek and mild, never say boo to a goose, and live your life as if Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World" were playing in the background 24/7. It will all get you nowhere when it comes to spiritual experience.

It's one of the defining characteristics of Crowley's approach. The actual practice of spiritual disciplines is the route to enlightenment. Being nice has nothing to do with it. How did you fail to spot this fundamental principle after 20 years of study?
 

Greg Stanton

Aeon418 said:
If it wasn't affiliated with US Grand Lodge, then it wasn't an OTO lodge you were involved with. You've been had by one of the various illegitimate Mc.OTO's that sprang up here, there, and everywhere. But the first step on the path is discrimination... tant pis.

Of course. And if you're not a member of the Catholic Church, you're not a real Christian.

Aeon418 said:
In your 20 years of experience with Crowley's works, did you never read any of the statements Crowley made concerning the OTO and how it was meant to be a New Aeonic reformulation of Freemasonry? Complaining that OTO ritual is masonic in style is about as silly as being surprised by the fact that a greengrocer sells vegetables. What were you expecting when you decided to join a quasi-masonic order?
Yes I did. I wasn't primarily concerned with the OTO as I was with ceremonial magic. The OTO didn't deliver what I expected, so I left. Crowley's and the GD's methods do not work when applied to CM. Period. If you have gotten them to work (i.e. evocation to physical manifestation/tangible results), I'd love to hear about it.

Aeon418 said:
It's one of the defining characteristics of Crowley's approach. The actual practice of spiritual disciplines is the route to enlightenment. Being nice has nothing to do with it. How did you fail to spot this fundamental principle after 20 years of study?
You can stop being condescending. I didn't fail to spot anything. I just didn't agree, and I've since moved on.

Just to be clear -- the bulk of my studies were GD, which nowadays seems to mixed up an awful lot with Crowley, and my focus was ceremonial magic. On top of that, the New Age approach to magic, using GD and Crowley as a source, virtually guarantees failure. That is my point.