How to appreciate Crowley?

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Of course. And if you're not a member of the Catholic Church, you're not a real Christian.

The OTO is an organisation, not a religion. You're either a member or you're not. It's as simple as that.

You're not confusing OTO with Thelema are you? OTO is merely an order that accepted Thelema. It is not the source of Thelema itself.

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Crowley's and the GD's methods do not work when applied to CM. Period.

So your argument is that just because they didn't work for you they won't work for anyone else either?

The Golden Dawn style ceremonial and the methods expounded in the old grimoires are merely techniques. There is nothing essential about any of them. There are a million and one ways to construct a ceremony. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. But the key ingredient is this: Do you have faith in the efficacy of the techniques you are using? Do they help you to suspend your sense of disbelief? If not they won't work.

If you personally feel that it is efficacious to carry out the laborious and tedious requirements of the grimoires, then that's what works for you. If it personally helps you to suspend your sense of disbelief by going on a scavenger hunt an 4am in the morning to search to mandrakes, bats blood, and virgin parchment, great. But it's a huge mistake to believe that it is the one and only true way to go about these things.

These rituals need not be slavishly imitated; on the contrary the student should do nothing the object of which he does not understand; also, if he have any capacity whatever, he will find his own crude rituals more effective than the highly polished ones of other people.

Liber O - Aleister Crowley

[Abrac]

I tend to agree with those who appreciate the Crowley Thoth Tarot as an impressive work of art by Frieda Harris. I believe it is possible to separate that from Crowley himself. But I hold suspect any metaphysical doctrine it may allege to contain simply because I don't trust Crowley as its messenger.

[Greg Stanton]

Originally Posted by Aeon418

The OTO is an organisation, not a religion. You're either a member or you're not. It's as simple as that.

I did a little research and found that when I was participating, the US Grand Lodge was not in existence -- though I suspect the group I was with has since been incorporated into it.

Originally Posted by Aeon418

You're not confusing OTO with Thelema are you? OTO is merely an order that accepted Thelema. It is not the source of Thelema itself.

I'm not confusing anything. Stop being condescending.

Originally Posted by Aeon418

So your argument is that just because they didn't work for you they won't work for anyone else either?

As previously stated, my argument is that because they didn't work for me, and because I have never met anyone who achieved success with them, it's fair to say this is true. This, coupled with the dubious pedigree of much of the GD source material, and the mix-and-match hodgepodge approach to magic, I do not believe the Golden Dawn approach to ceremonial magic to be effective.

Originally Posted by Aeon418

The Golden Dawn style ceremonial and the methods expounded in the old grimoires are merely techniques. There is nothing essential about any of them. There are a million and one ways to construct a ceremony. There is no right or wrong way to go about it. But the key ingredient is this: Do you have faith in the efficacy of the techniques you are using? Do they help you to suspend your sense of disbelief? If not they won't work.

Techniques used for frying a chicken do not work for baking a cake. Likewise, arbitrarily translating Goetic evocations into Enochian, Invoking Hermetic deities before an (essentially) Catholic rite, or tracing your circle in the air and visualizing it to be in place while the instructions specifically state that it must be physically drawn, is illogical and will guarantee the failure of any operation.

Originally Posted by Aeon418

If you personally feel that it is efficacious to carry out the laborious and tedious requirements of the grimoires, then that's what works for you. If it personally helps you to suspend your sense of disbelief by going on a scavenger hunt an 4am in the morning to search to mandrakes, bats blood, and virgin parchment, great. But it's a huge mistake to believe that it is the one and only true way to go about these things.

Magic is an act of will, and what you put into it is what comes out.

Why should one suspend one's disbelief? There should be no disbelief to suspend. Again, this is the sort of new age-type precept that virtually guarantees failure.

Also, not all of the grimoires are laborious and tedious. The Greater Key of Solomon (as it's now known) is nearly impossible to follow to the letter. The Goetia is a little easier, and the Heptameron in comparison is quite simple.

Never said there was only one way to do anything. Only that I had no success with GD techniques applied to ceremonial magic. However, I do believe that all the shortcuts prescribed by modern occult writers guarantee failure -- in any and all operations.

In answer to Crowley saying "the student should do nothing the object of which he does not understand", I have only to reply "understand everything that is demanded of the rite and omit nothing."

[Rosanne]

I wish I had explained my views as succinctly as Abrac- for I was not going to post here again as the thread keeps moving away from the subject of Crowley and how to reconcile use of the deck. I have found it perfectly fine to use the deck without immersing myself in Crowley or becoming a Thelema member or a Freemason old or new order. I suspect the deck is used for meditation/magikal ritual, not as a reading deck anyway- but how a Thelema member uses the Thoth deck would be a whole new thread.
Many Thanks Abrac the highlight is mine..

I tend to agree with those who appreciate the Crowley Thoth Tarot as an impressive work of art by Frieda Harris. I believe it is possible to separate that from Crowley himself. But I hold suspect any metaphysical doctrine it may allege to contain simply because I don't trust Crowley as its messenger.

[Aeon418]

Liber Aleph chp.89

Zz
DE EADEM RE ALTERA VERBA

By this Understanding be they rebuked that make a Reproach to our Art, saying in their Insolence that if we have all Power, why are we betimes in Stress of Poverty, and in Contempt of men, and in Pain of Disease, and so forth, mocking us, and holding our Magick for Delusion. But they behold not our Light, how it guideth us in our Path unto a Goal that is not in their Comprehension, so that we crave not that which seemeth to them the Sole Food and Comfort of Life. Also, this which we attain, though it be the Essence of Omniscience and Omnipotence, informeth and moveth the Material World (so to call it) only according to the Nature of that which is therein. For the Light of the Sun (by His very Wholeness itself) sheweth a Rose Red, but a Leaf Green; and His Heat gathereth the Clouds, and disperseth them also. So I then, though I were perfect in Magick, might not work in Metals as a Smith, or become rich by Commerce as a Merchant; for I have not in my Nature the Engines proper to these Capacities, and therefore it is not of my will to seek to exercise them. Here then is my Case, that I can not because I will not, and it were Conflict, should I turn thither. But let every man become perfect in his own Work, not heeding the Rebuke of another, that some Way not his own is more Noble, or Profitable, but being constant in mindfulness concerning his Business.

[Greg Stanton]

And at this point you must ask yourself, "well then, what is it my studies have given me the power to DO? How does this magick give me control and certainty over my life and body? Have I achieved, or do I believe I can achieve, what I want using magick? Or am I just deluding myself?"

For me, unfortunately, I couldn't give a positive answer to any of these questions. So please don't rebuke me for having tried.

BTW, this was one of the hardest things I've ever had to face in my life. It's very difficult to allow yourself to see that something that has taken up a good part of your life and thoughts is not what you had hoped it was.

[Aeon418]

This portion of an article by Phyllis Seckler (Soror Meral) was previously published in In the Continuum vol.1 no.3. It follows on from the previous chapter of Liber Aleph quoted above.

Along this line, let me remark that every person when they have some small amount of development sees the world and others through a narrow window. This window is their own nature. As aspirants to Initiation they formulate an idea in themselves of what an Initiated person ought to be like. This idea is none other than the idea of their own Higher Self which has broken through into the mental and conscious life. We could also use Jungian terms and label them the Anima or Animus which Jung states is a bridge to the knowledge of the Divine. They are the ideas of all that is good or true or beautiful or of the highest that we may know. The student who has found a guru or a teacher immediately begins to project his own ideas of his Higher Self on to the guru and begins to demand that the guru live up to this idea! If the guru is quite different from the students ideas of him there is bound to be much disappointment. Worse, the student may be seriously hampering the guru in his function, for if the guru says not what the student expects to hear, there is much trouble. Still worse, the student is not allowing another to live in Freedom. Is not Thelema a Law of Freedom? For this reason the position of teacher or guru could be a very dangerous position for anyone not firmly set in his own Will. Consider how little freedom is vouchsafed to public fugures - whether he be President or Minister, Principal of a School, movie star or any other in public life who must bear the burden of public projections. Consider the venemous letters such persons receive from poor crazed souls expert in projection who can not see that they wish conduct from others which is only fitting for themselves.

Is it any wonder that the Sage would wish to remain unknown? Unless, indeed, it is his Will to teach or to bring a New Word to mankind.

Further, this habit of the projection of one's own characteristics upon another can take ominous turns. How about when the whole German nation projected their frustrations onto a man like Hitler? Or when suppressed sex is linked up with death and we have a lynching party?

The same thing happens with first loves. Indeed, some people are forever looking for their Higher Selves (for the Anima or Animus) in the opposite sex. For this reason they are blinded to the true nature of the Beloved. Just as they could be blinded to the True Nature of the guru. Of course they will never find the anima or animus or the Higher Self in the other person. This would be an impossibility against Nature. Each person is a Star in and of themselves. "Every man and every woman is a star." (Liber Al vel Legis, Cap.1 v.3). Sometimes these people become disappointed because they cannot find the True Self in the other. Sooner or later the loved one insists on being herself or himself. Such disappointments may lead to more and more marriages or the person may refuse to marry and wishes only to "play the field". Such a person never grows to the point where he can face himself. In the case of the search for a proper guru who will combine in himself all the ideals the student wishes for himself, this may lead the student to join one Occult Order after another in hopes that, finding himself in another, he may then attain Initiation more quickly.

What is needed in all such situations is a more thorough understanding of their own nature and a maturing process which leads one to know and to be one's own Higher Self. It is the path of a slave and of a coward not to realize that the ideals one projects upon another are one's own and do not necessarily belong to the other. Further, it is a serious attempt to enslave and hamper another person in their true nature to demand or even think that he or she should live up to one's own formulated ideals. Here we see the root of the reason why the lower levels of mankind wish to pull the genius down to their own levels. The undeveloped person cannot recognise his own projections, be they of the higher or lower variety, and so when he learns of others who live above the laws of his herd mind, he becomes afraid of such freedom and desires to pull the genius to his own level of thinking. This is one reason why the Book of the Law states, "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!" Cap 11, v.25. For ramifications of this problem it might be very profitable for you to study Nietzsche and especially his "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

By the way, it is a mark of a slave religion if everyone is expected to come up to the ideals of the founder of that religion. Christianity is a good example of this. Or perhaps I should say Churchianity?

Sometimes I think that Crowley deliberately acted to break some projection or other that his students were thinking up. Therefore we hear strange stories about his behaviour to others. Should we not consider that this might have been one of his motives for action?

[sapienza]

Originally Posted by Abrac

I tend to agree with those who appreciate the Crowley Thoth Tarot as an impressive work of art by Frieda Harris. I believe it is possible to separate that from Crowley himself. But I hold suspect any metaphysical doctrine it may allege to contain simply because I don't trust Crowley as its messenger.

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I wish I had explained my views as succinctly as Abrac- for I was not going to post here again as the thread keeps moving away from the subject of Crowley and how to reconcile use of the deck. I have found it perfectly fine to use the deck without immersing myself in Crowley or becoming a Thelema member or a Freemason old or new order. I suspect the deck is used for meditation/magikal ritual, not as a reading deck anyway- but how a Thelema member uses the Thoth deck would be a whole new thread.

Thanks Abrac and Rosanne for your comments.

So, I'm wondering, are there many people who use the Thoth deck who don't particularly like Crowley, don't read his books, and don't subscribe to the ideas of Thelema? How easy (or difficult) is it to separate the two? I know this has been touched on in previous posts by some people, but I'm just interested in hearing people's thoughts. Personally I don't feel strongly either way just yet, but I'm only starting with this deck.

ETA- The reason I'm posting this question is that after reading through this thread, I'm starting to feel that it would be 'wrong' or 'looked down on' to just use this deck without becoming a Crowley devotee

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by sapienza

ETA- The reason I'm posting this question is that after reading through this thread, I'm starting to feel that it would be 'wrong' or 'looked down on' to just use this deck without becoming a Crowley devotee

I suspect there are a lot of people on Aeclectic who use the Thoth deck but don't necessarily agree with Crowley, and who, even if they've read a smattering of his writings, don't consider themselves his advocates.

Might make an interesting poll, if one hasn't been done before.

Nevada

[ravenest]

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Ravenest, I was involved in the OTO, Western US, though not part of, to my knowledge, of the current US Grand Lodge. I was part of this organization for less than 5 years -- mostly because of some of the weird behavior I witnessed. The bulk of my studies have been on my own.

A U.S. OTO group that is NOT part of U.S. Grand Lodge ??? Hmmmmmm.

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Yes, I expect full physical manifestation during magical rites - though not of gods or angels. The OTO rites I attended were nothing more than Masonic-style ritual -- with no physical results. Consecrated planetary talismans made in flashing colors were not effective, no measurable results. No manifestiation/communication during exactly 12 Goetic evocations. Nothing. Did not get through the Enochian stuff, but after reading through Dee's original material, I see that it bears very little relation to what the GD taught, so I'm skeptical.

Okay, it worked for me, so I'm not skeptical.

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Magic is an act of will. If you've got thoughts floating around in your head like "the spirits of the Goetia are actually parts of the human brain", or "it is immaterial whether these things exist or not", "I don't expect anything to actually appear", the magic wont' work -- because you don't really believe in it. You have mentally set yourself up for failure. Your will has been effectively neutered.

Sorry , it IS immaterial weather these things exists or not, to see it otherwise leads to fanatacism on the one hand and and skepticism on the other. I believe that and DID get the results I wanted (which were clearly the results Crowley outlined as I refrernced above), but think what you want, belive whatever you think magick is supposed to deliver and when you are wrong ... blame the system for not delkiovering what you wanted (even though it is at odds to what A.C. clearly stated).

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Not only must you believe that the magic will produce real, tangible results, but there must be an underlying, logical structure behind the methods you are using. The Esoteric/Kabbalah type of approach, as taught by the GD, to my mind is so full of flaws and holes that it is insufficient as a magical system (see my comments above).

And of course 'hoodoo spellcraft' - which apparently 'works' has no flaws ???

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Also, it may be that I'm a direct, no-nonsense guy. I wanted to use magic(k) to help me fulfill specific goals and achieve certain ends. GD/Crowley is, essentially 22 paths and 10 pit-stops to an end-result of supposed spiritual enlightment (which I never achieved by this route, and apparently, neither did Crowley, if his conduct is any indication). I found esoteric studies to be interesting, but essentially a dead-end street. It only leads to more... esotericism. And as I've said above, viewing the world through Kabbalah-colored glasses only narrows your view of reality, rather than increases your understanding of it.

NO, it is supposed to (and has for me) done the opposite!

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

I'm not saying that Crowley's rituals were not magical in a spiritual sense. They just didn't deliver the real deal (i.e. physical manifestation/tangible physical results). And it's not that I "didn't get the point" as you say. I did, found it was not to my taste, and I've moved on.

And like I've said, I've gotten actual physical results from Hoodoo spellcraft (hey, it's direct!). I've also done one evocation from the Heptameron, using the original methods outlined in the book (no GD or Crowley), and though the results were not complete, I experienced real physical phenomena -- frightening, in fact. It's too bad I had to shut the ritual down.

So now your 'successful ritual' had to be shut down before you finished it?

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

I'm convinced that more experience will probably bear fruit, but at this point in time I think I will probably not pursue it further. I don't want to sound like a nut-job either, and for that reason I won't discuss this further.

Anyway, so much for my magical adventure. I'm a successful person now, and I have little reason for evoking spirits. Also, I've matured, and other things in life are much more important to me.

And of course THAT has nothing to do with your previous studies and practices in the OTO?

Originally Posted by Greg Stanton

Also, re the New Aeon. I never said it was a non-event. I only stated that Thelema has not, and will not be the religion of the "new age".

And no Thelemite would want it too be, you missed the point again, the New Age is something else .... oh dear! What a mess ...