How to appreciate Crowley?

Aeon418

Rosanne said:
The word Illuminism, when used as a proper noun, refers specifically to the form of enlightenment or illumination that is a part of advancement in the ranks of various secret societies that claim a common origin with the Bavarian Illuminati. As such it is an important concept within Discordianism as well. The idea of Illumination can be usefully compared to Enlightenment, Grace, and Satori in other spiritual traditions.
If you want to understand Crowley's concept of Illuminism, read Crowley. Trawling through Wikipedia for quotes is a pale substitute and is likely to mislead.
Rosanne said:
To repeat: to expand and grow in knowledge from a foundation that someone started the ball rolling with is NOT re-inventing the wheel.
I agree with you. :) But if you take the time to go back a few posts further in this thread you will find that Umbrae does not. My argument is that 777 is a foundation that you build upon. It is not, as Umbrae suggests, just Crowley's personal qabalah.
 

Rosanne

Aeon418 said:
Thanks for that, but I trawled through the web myself earlier, when you first bought it up. Trawling through the web saves typing, or scanning in book pages, and is quite illuminating at times because it gives other views on particular enlightenment, as seen by other people, which is how you form an idea of a balanced viewpoint. It is not always a pale substitute, and does not always mislead. I do take the time to read whole threads as well- as I said earlier and will keep repeating to you- your viewpoint is not the only valid one.
~Rosanne
 

Aeon418

Rosanne said:
Thanks for that, but I trawled through the web myself earlier, when you first bought it up.
I didn't post it specifically for you Rosanne. But you are welcome anyway. Actually I figured you would have already studied that essay in your own copy of 777.
Rosanne said:
as I said earlier and will keep repeating to you- your viewpoint is not the only valid one.
I agree with you. :)

But there is a difference between a viewpoint based on an accurate understanding of the facts, and a viewpoint based on ignorance and wilful misinterpretation. Crowley's remark that "my qabalah is not your qabalah" is not an injunction to scrap the whole system and start again from scratch.

Magick Without Tears, letter 3:
That is all, just now, sister; no more of your cavilling, please; sit down quietly with your 777, and get it by heart!
Magick Without Tears, letter 4:
You must construct your own Qabalah! Nobody can do it for you.
There is no contradiction between those two statements. To say that there is is equivalent to trying to play chess without knowing the rules. Sure, you can move the pieces around at random, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you are actually playing the game right.

Someone else can teach you the rules, but they can't play the game for you.
 

Aeon418

Umbrae said:
When one reads Crowley, he urged each of us to write our own magical diary (journal). In it, we are to sort and categorize our own world, our own experiences upon (or onto) the Tree of Life. ‘777’ was his journal
So you believe that 777 is merely Crowley's personal journal.

How odd that Dion Fortune felt the need to write a whole book about Crowley's personal insights. (The Mystical Qabalah*) Hmmmm..... I wonder why she did that? That would be rather stupid and a bit of waste of time really.

Could it be because 777 is not Crowley's journal.

EDIT: *Add to that practically every single book written on the Western Esoteric tradition. Are they really all based on Crowley's personal qabalah?
 

firemaiden

UMBRAE said:
Once one really dives deeply into the writings of Aleister Crowley, we find that he was more interested in helping others create and find their own way in the world, as opposed to creating an army of blind followers.
Uncle Al said:
We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon. Our method is science, our aim is religion
Write a rhyme: couple "RELIGION" with "PIGEON" -- how deliciously SILLY. Shouldn't this be a sign that Crowley never meant us to take him as gospel?

I don't know, kids, while reading this thread, I can't help observing -- what's paradoxical in human nature is how much we human-folk crave master guru types, and those masters who seem to inspire our deepest adoration are precisely those who tell us to THINK FOR OURSELVES.

How absolutely right on were the Monty Pythonites in THE LIFE OF BRIAN -- -where the prophet Brian is being pursued by the mob calling him "MASTER" -- all desperate to be told exactly what to do... only to be told:
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
Man in Crowd: I'm not...
The Crowd: Shhh!​

It seems to me that Crowley was all about freedom - freedom of the mind, freedom to be an individual, freedom to make a religious experience out of whatever silliness you choose, even stuff you downright MAKE UP out of WHOLE HOG!

Look!! Aleister Crowley wrote in- Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae:

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations ; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."


Aleister Crowley has to be howling in his grave --howling and shrieking with laughter that would kill him if he weren't already dead. "What? Oh by Teheuti, can you believe it? They're taking me SERIOUSLY!!! -- and I even told them right of the bat NOT TO!!! What do they think "the Book of Lies" means?"
 

Nevada

I think Firemaiden makes an excellent point. I find Crowley much easier to consume if I consider him to not have taken himself too seriously. I worry about people who do take him too seriously. It's their choice of course, but when I see people here, not just in this thread, but throughout the Thoth forum, pontificating about the importance of studying all of Crowley's writings before making up one's mind about ... well, anything ... I can't help but wonder if they're missing Crowley's point. But then, how do any of us know what his point might really have been? He's one of the most cryptic writers I've ever read.

I'm of the "don't take ANYONE too seriously" mindset. I think that when we take anyone too seriously, we begin to also take ourselves too seriously, and then . . . Growth. And. Learning. Stop. Dead in their tracks. Every time.

So now, everyone step away from the computer and go be silly for half an hour. Don't come back until you've laughed at yourself at least once!

My gurus are: Whoopi Goldberg, Steve Martin, Adam Sandler, and Jim Carrey (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone). All experts at laughing at themselves as much as they laugh at anyone else. I suspect Crowley would've liked them. If not, well then maybe he really did take himself too seriously. Poor guy.

Nevada
 

Rosanne

Firemaiden and Nevada have shown there is a way to appreciate Crowley in other areas than study of him say via -Thelema.
I am one to see the funny side and it also sets in my mind something of value about what he said.
I am always making up dittys and short rhyming verse that mimic him.
Nothing wrong with irreverence either.
As Firemaiden pointed out in the skit from the the life of Brian- we learn how we are with Humour.
I learned all the plots of Shakespeares's plays from a really hilarious book called 'Twisted Tales from Shakespeare' whilst I was at school- Literature taught by a progressive Nun who made us all laugh and instilled the lessons through Mirth.
I can still reel off quotes all these years later. Mind you "Out,damned spot! Out I say!" is still seen through the eyes of a search for the right laundry powder not Macbeth. Nevertheless it reminds that some things will haunt me, long after the deed is done.
This is the same with Crowley-How about a little lightness of Heart and a smile on our face? The Local Doctor's last 3 digits on his phone here is 666- and you find it has fallen into local lore- "Speak of the Devil- Ring the Doc!"
There is something in that that would amuse Crowley, and become a lesson.
A Saviour and the Devil combined?
~Rosanne
 

Umbrae

Aeon418 said:
Umbrae said:
When one reads Crowley, he urged each of us to write our own magical diary (journal). In it, we are to sort and categorize our own world, our own experiences upon (or onto) the Tree of Life. ‘777’ was his journal

So you believe that 777 is merely Crowley's personal journal.

How odd that Dion Fortune felt the need to write a whole book about Crowley's personal insights. (The Mystical Qabalah*) Hmmmm..... I wonder why she did that? That would be rather stupid and a bit of waste of time really.

Could it be because 777 is not Crowley's journal.

EDIT: *Add to that practically every single book written on the Western Esoteric tradition. Are they really all based on Crowley's personal qabalah?

First off – that’s not what I said. You’ve misquoted me and in doing so, mischaracterized my post (#200 in this thread) where I stated
Umbrae said:
When one reads Crowley, he urged each of us to write our own magical diary (journal). In it, we are to sort and categorize our own world, our own experiences upon (or onto) the Tree of Life. ‘777’ was his journal, however others use it as gospel, failing to write their own. Crowley was quixotic, on one hand he wanted followers (especially later in life when he was trying to publish his Tarot – he hoped that Jack Parsons would attract the money needed to the OTO to enable publication, that however failed), and on the other hand he demanded that we do our own homework.

When we do our own homework however, we may arrive at different conclusion than Crowley. At once this seems at odds. Others will tell us that we’ve failed to comprehend his writings.

But back in The Book of The Law he states:
In our present stage, the object that you see is never the same as the one that I see ; we infer that it is the same because your experience tallies with mine on so many points that the actual difference of our observation are negligible. For instance, if a friend is walking between us, you see only his left side, I his right ; but we agree that it is the same man. Although we may differ not only as to what we may see of his body but as to what we know of his qualities.

Arriving at differences is part of the joy of discovering and appreciating Crowley!

This poster urges that the reader read the books to discover the relevance of each quote for themselves.

I am indeed troubled by the insistence that we not do as Crowley directed (our own homework); and that my suggestion that we do AS Crowley driected constitutes:
Aeon418 said:
But if you want to re-invent the wheel...

Quite worrisome.

Aeon418 said:
My argument is that 777 is a foundation that you build upon. It is not, as Umbrae suggests, just Crowley's personal qabalah.
Once again, this is not what I said or implied. I did however quote Crowley’s statement (in full in prior post #200) that, “your Qabalah is not my Qabalah; a good many of the things which I have noted may be useful to you, but you must construct your own system so that it is a living weapon in your hand.”

Crowley’s words, not mine.

We are not re-inventing a wheel. We are understanding how the wheel works. We are doing our homework as prescribed by Aleister Crowley himself.

I was having a conversation just yesterday about the physics of lacing bicycle wheels. Fascinating subject that, in that the forces exerted on such are counterintuitive.
 

Rosanne

We are not re-inventing a wheel. We are understanding how the wheel works. We are doing our homework as prescribed by Aleister Crowley himself.

Excellent Umbrae!
Not only learning how a wheel works- but making the wheel work for me. I am old and my wheel needs to reflect that- I would kill my self on a Penny Farthing.
~Rosanne