Legend: Five of Shields (The Wasteland)

[Leo62]

Originally Posted by Sophie-David

I have Capricorn Sun and Ascendant, and the Wounded King has been a very apt description of a good portion of my life. This looks like a another book I will have to read!

A bit off-topic: I had another look at "The Astrology of Fate" after posting my comment, and when I reviewed the section on Capricorn, what did I find? The exact quote from Eliot that I included in my first post!
David - if you're interested in astrology I would highly recommend this book. The first half focuses on Pluto as a signifier of fate, but the second half explores each sign of the zodiac, allocating a "core myth" to every sign. Incidentally I also have Capricorn rising....

Originally Posted by Sophie-David

What I intended to ask everyone yesterday was, how do you visually perceive this Five of Shields? To me it could be either a swampland covered over in toxic fog, or a frozen winter wasteland. In considering it this morning, I believe that I have a hybird view, that is it is a swampland that is frozen over under winter snow. Although it is not my personal connection, I also see that it could be a parched Land of Shields (Pentacles), dying for lack of water. In short, is your personal wasteland arid, oversaturated, frozen, or containing some other imagery I haven't thought of?

I certainly see it as a toxic waste. Everything looks poisoned - the very air seems unhealthy. Looks in need of a strong sea wind or a brisk storm to clear the air. Or perhaps a "cleanup" team from Greenpeace...
I agree, the image does not look particularly "dry." I think I've picked up the lack-of-water thing from the imagery in the Waste Land poem.

I drew another card from the deck today, asking the question: "What is the key to moving through/moving out of the wasteland?"

I got:
Six of Swords (The Eachtra)

Here's the image:
http://www.llewellyn.com/tarot/images/le_swords6.jpg

And here's the link to the study group thread on this card:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=36929

Well you could have knocked me down with a feather...
This is another card that has been haunting me lately. And...it's one of my favourites. I love the sense of excitement and adventure and mystery in this card. It has a real Neptune-in-Scorpio feel for me, in the most positive sense - voyaging to the depths of the mysteries.

Also, considering my earlier comments about the water element, this card is full of it!

And when I looked in "A Keeper of Words" the keywords summed up many of the things we've discussed in this thread:

"Movement; journey by water...Easing restrictions. The first step towards an unknown destination. Passage away from danger. A brave attempt to improve one's circumstances. Breaking free of a rut...Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel..."

The better I get to know it, the more I admire this deck. It seems soft and gentle at first, but boy does it have hidden depths!

[Sophie-David]

Originally Posted by Leo62

A bit off-topic: I had another look at "The Astrology of Fate" after posting my comment, and when I reviewed the section on Capricorn, what did I find? The exact quote from Eliot that I included in my first post!
David - if you're interested in astrology I would highly recommend this book. The first half focuses on Pluto as a signifier of fate, but the second half explores each sign of the zodiac, allocating a "core myth" to every sign. Incidentally I also have Capricorn rising....

Yes, that sounds like one I need to add to the list. I like this site which has short myths for each month.

Originally Posted by Leo62

I drew another card from the deck today, asking the question: "What is the key to moving through/moving out of the wasteland?"

I got:
Six of Swords (The Eachtra)...

Well you could have knocked me down with a feather...
This is another card that has been haunting me lately. And...it's one of my favourites. I love the sense of excitement and adventure and mystery in this card. It has a real Neptune-in-Scorpio feel for me, in the most positive sense - voyaging to the depths of the mysteries.

This is a really inspirational card. I always think of them having just emerged from an underwater cavern, or about to go in one, there's that sense of quietly sublime mystery about it.

Originally Posted by Leo62

The better I get to know it, the more I admire this deck. It seems soft and gentle at first, but boy does it have hidden depths!

It is really a powerful deck. When I had finished the Majors in my card-a-night dream programming I decided to do some readings with the Majors only. I found them a bit overpowering as Majors only - but with the balance of the Minors they work very well, the stories behind the cards add a lot of depth. I have a couple of Majors only decks which are more suitable for archetypal readings.

David

[theredfox]

Which pack are you talking about?

[theredfox]

Originally Posted by Sophie-David

Hi RedFox

Actually, at least in Anna-Marie's account, it is King Pelles of the Nine of Cups who was accidentally wounded by the Ace of Spears Grail Lance and became the Maimed King. The health of the Land depended on her king, and so she became a Wasteland. But perhaps there is another tradition which involves Arthur and the Wasteland?
Neptune in Scorpio comes to mind. He can be quite depressive, emotionally charged, but confused and lacking direction, sinking slowly into decay and death from which he at last regenerates in a transcendently radical artistic and spiritual awakening. Thus the Empress Reversed - creativity blocked and delayed - progresses through the Hanged One until Death comes at last. Perhaps passing through a blissful readjustment and respite in Temperance, we must still deal with our internal naysayer or Devil, until we accept the ultimate breakdown of our Tower. Apart from the beautiful synthesis of Temperance, in any of these dramatic "Why Cards" the Wasteland may become manifest. Then we realize, the creative journey is not an easy one, and a good dose of the Star would be really wonderful right about now!

David

Nice story. I also have neptune in scorpio and while I'd agree its a good signifier for a wasteland, I think it must be a very emotional configuration. Intense, stagnant water. Maybe you could have a wasteland for each of the elements?

Interesting if Anne-Marie makes the wasteland a barren woman, and you can understand the symbolism there: woman's body = the land. I don't actually know what the original tale says about that, and was thinking of the movie Excalibur when you see Arthur inactive and depressed, his country is barren and the people wretched and miserable. Then when he gets his enthusiasm back (fire), you start to see vibrant greenery appearing, where before it was a dreary grey.

Its a pack I'd like to see because I enjoy the Arthur myth, but I'm slightly suspicious about the barren woman idea. I'm a bit fed up with this fashion for paganism/the Goddess (gaaah!)/women's mysteries etc etc....I find it very regressive, religious and emotional, far too yin and in need of a strong input of yang.

[Leo62]

Originally Posted by theredfox

Its a pack I'd like to see because I enjoy the Arthur myth, but I'm slightly suspicious about the barren woman idea. I'm a bit fed up with this fashion for paganism/the Goddess (gaaah!)/women's mysteries etc etc....I find it very regressive, religious and emotional, far too yin and in need of a strong input of yang.

OK - here's an "input of yang" for you; it might be an idea to get acquainted with the deck, then you can express an informed opinion about it

To that end:
Here's a link to the review on AT
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/legend-arthurian/

And here's a link to the Llewellyn website.
http://www.llewellyn.com/tarot/images/

If you page down to the files prefixed "le" you can look through every card in the deck.

[theredfox]

I didnt say it was an informed opinion. I said I was "slightly suspicious", the reason being that the emotion/religious-feminism/yin approach is so widely prevalent. Thus, construing the 'wasteland' in terms of a barren woman would fit that. I dont like it, if that is correct.

[Sophie-David]

Originally Posted by theredfox

Which pack are you talking about?

Hi RedFox

We are studying Legend: The Arthurian Tarot. The Study Group Index is here.

Originally Posted by theredfox

I didnt say it was an informed opinion. I said I was "slightly suspicious", the reason being that the emotion/religious-feminism/yin approach is so widely prevalent. Thus, construing the 'wasteland' in terms of a barren woman would fit that. I dont like it, if that is correct.

Anna-Marie is referring to imagery which constituted a significant part of the earlier culture of Europe. It is appropriate to the subject of this deck. Interestingly, the yang approach also refers to the Land as a woman, either barren or in bloom - just check the Bible, particularly the Song of Solomon!

I hesitate to ask, but why are you troubled by the "emotion/religious-feminism/yin approach"? Is it not appropriate to introduce some balance into our yang dominated culture?

Cheers
David

[theredfox]

I'm not sure the meaning or symbolism of this yin/yang reference is properly established. I dont mean it in a patriarchal/matriarchal sense, but rather in terms of psychology.

I am referring to religious feminism and a kind of sentimental emotionalism, that may well counter 'yang society', but which at a personal level - all that really interests me - IMO lacks clarity and philosophy/insight. Its all about *emotion* (and please, no comments about the value of emotion - I know what its value is! - take what I say here *in context*).

However I have no wish to pursue that. But if this deck falls into that kind of category, that disappoints me because it means its a selective and unbalanced interpretation of the original stories.

All of which is hypothetical....the point really is, what *do* the stories in Le Morte D'Arthur etc say? I dont know the answer.

[Sophie-David]

Anna-Marie Ferguson has conducted extensive research into Arthurian legend, it appears to be her life's passion. The stories of Arthur were based on people and events in the dark ages, and the development of these tales began in the fifth century and ended in the fifteenth. Le Morte d'Arthur was only the latest of the sources that Anna-Marie used.

Over this period of a thousand years British culture changed from a pagan and somewhat egalitarian consciousness to a hierarchal and formalized Christian one. The stories evolved with the society. In the companion book, The Keeper of Words, Anna-Marie goes to great lengths to present several of the differing historical understandings associated with many of the cards. I would suggest that her interpretations are about as balanced as one can achieve within the limited space she has to tell the story of each card.

Her imagery is another matter, painted in considerably more subtle watercolour and intricate detail than what appears in the Llewellyn scans. In our discussion of the Moon there was a feeling expressed that the deck appeared to have been painted as if under a full moon, it is a very lunar deck. Additionally, Lyones pointed out in Judgement that 38 of the 78 cards in the deck contain water imagery in them, at 49% this is well over the expected 25% for each element. So the subjects are watery, painted in watercolour, and the images are romantic but with a spectral lunar quality. To me this is quite a feminine deck, not in its selections or in its interpretations, but in its artistic execution.

[theredfox]

OK theres some good observation there.
I would like to know what the original or 'standard' Arthurian stories say though. Shakespeare varies quite a lot, but the basic stories are fixed, and the difference between a barren woman and a barren land - as symbols - is very substantial! I remain dubious about this, and your confirmation of the feminine nature of this pack also confirms this: it is widely prevalent, this female re-interpretation of tradition/religion etc, which IMO creates emotional and ultimately rather vacuous ideas. A literature scholar could tell me in 10 seconds whether the core Arthurian texts used the woman's body symbol or the barren land symbol. Which one occurs, which one is most frequently used, which was most influential, accepted etc etc. Basically, I dont want to buy into this pagan/tree hugging/goddess (gaah!) thing....I dont like it, and dont respect it, because IMO it lacks insight and balance. I prefer a balanced tarot, not one that reflects fluctuating social, political or cultural trends.

But apart from that....I will try and have a look at it in a shop and maybe view the study group, because I do enjoy the Arthurian myths. Although the watery feminine style *does* actually discourage me, because I dont like it.