Does the Tarot de Marseille comes from Occitania?

[le pendu]

Okay, this may be a stupid question.. but something that has been bothering me. Aren't the earliest "French" Tarot cards in existance from Paris and Lyon? Isn't the term TdM a fairly modern one used to describe a pattern made popular in recent centuries in Marsielles? Are we working off an assumption when we speak of the TdM as a Occitanian deck?

What historical evidence is there that the pattern called the TdM is from Occitania?

best,
robert

[Sophie]

Good question (I don't have the answer ) - and Marseille isn't even in Occitania - it is in Provence!

I seem to remember reading somewhere - I wish I could trace it (I'll try) that there was evidence of the first Tarots in France being made in the South - which makes sense given its proximity to Italy. But on the other hand, Tarot seems have have come to France in the packs of the French armies that had invaded parts of Italy - so it might well have reached Paris first.

I think it important too to look a the tradition of the artisan-journeyman of the time (Compagnon), who would have travlled throughout the WHOLE of France - but, for one branch of it, would have made the road to Compostella - through Occitania - one or several times in a lifetime.

As for Lyon and Paris:
Lyon is at the crossroads between South and Central France, on the Rhône, that flows directly to Marseille.

Paris is the capital and would have attracted artisans from all over France. In the 16th-17th centuries, in the wake of Henri de Navarre, many Occitanians came to Paris.

These are factual things that don't tell us much more about the Tarot de Marseille. It remains mysterious. But I will say this: its iconography can be traced to several places in France - but a fair bit of it to the South, including some of the Celtic imagery.

Let's not forget the language of the birds. So far I have only read language of the birds associations in French - but I wonder if there are any in Provençal or Occitan? We need someone who speaks these languages well to be able to see and hear the wordplay in the imagery.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Robert,

Originally Posted by le pendu

Okay, this may be a stupid question.. but something that has been bothering me. Aren't the earliest "French" Tarot cards in existance from Paris and Lyon? Isn't the term TdM a fairly modern one used to describe a pattern made popular in recent centuries in Marsielles? Are we working off an assumption when we speak of the TdM as a Occitanian deck?

What historical evidence is there that the pattern called the TdM is from Occitania?

This is a pretty complex question (aren't all things related to early tarot complex?).

If by "TdM" you mean Noblet, Chosson, Conver et al. (i.e. a lot of decks illustrated in Kaplan and Schweizer Spielkarten 2), then the earliest decks come from around 1650, and many come from Avignon and Marseille, which are indeed part of "occitanie" (a cultural entity, not a state or region)
(see for example the map at http://www.ariege.com/culture/occitanie/ for the extent of France that is included in "occitania") - it is essentially the whole of the southern third of France, and a few places in Italy near the French border which speak an occitan dialect (there are also some occitan speaking regions of Calabria in southern Italy, where some people fleeing the crusade settled).

So, if this design originated in Marseille or Avignon, then you can consider the TdM an "occitan" deck.

Two points confuse the issue however.

First, some scholars (like Michael Dummett) think that the designs and (most of) the order of the "TdM" pack actually originated in Milan in the 15th century. For them, the French (or occitan as it were) contribution, the changes in the deck like adding dogs to the Moon card, and perhaps putting the Hermit as number IX (instead of XI as he is in all attested Italian sources for the "Lombardy" order), were secondary and later innovations.

So with the first point you could consider that the TdM is still an occitan creation, even though it is largely based on an earlier Italian source.

Second point.
Many are happy to accept that the TdM as we know it is a French (or occitan if you will, in the literal sense that the cities that appear to have made it first are in occitania) creation, an adaptation of an Italian deck, at least invented by the early 17th century. A joint Franco-Italian production. But some aren't happy with that, and want to believe that the whole TdM originated much deeper in occitania, both in time and space. In time, this means the high middle ages, the age of the Crusades, Templars and Cathars, and the Graal romances; in space this means somewhere in "Cathar country", that is, the places where the Albigensian crusade took place, starting in Béziers and moving westward to set up Inquisition tribunals in places like Carcassone and Toulouse.

As you know, there is no evidence that tarot cards were known at this time or in these places. The earliest TdM's (the cards themselves, lest we forget) are from the mid-17th century. The earliest French tarot deck, Catelin Geoffroy, is from 1557, but it is not a TdM (although the cards are in TdM order). Lyon is not part of Occitania. There is no record of Tarot cards being made west of the Rhône (I mean towns with a long record of cardmaking, like Nîmes, Montpellier, and as far as Toulouse).

So, I think if I had to give a yes or no to what I take to be the intent of your question, taking occitania to mean not only a strictly geographic place but a cultural-ideological construct set in the age of the crusades, I would have to say "No, there is no evidence for it being an occitanian deck."

If it is meant literally - does the TdM come from Occitania? Then the answer for me is "Yes, this style of deck originated in occitan speaking cities, probably in the early 17th century".

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Helvetica

Good question (I don't have the answer ) - and Marseille isn't even in Occitania - it is in Provence!

Marseille is in Provence, but Provence is in Occitania! Provence, like Languedoc-Rousillon, is an official region of France - each region is subdivided into departements, like Herault (where Béziers is) and Bouches-du-Rhône (where Marseille is).
http://www.tourisme.fr/carte/france.htm
(clickable map)

Occitania is a cultural and linguistic area, but has no "official" status as a region. Occitan has several dialects, including Languedocien and Provençal.
http://www.perigord.tm.fr/~cplo/HTML...%20droite.html

Here is a map of the region considered to be included in "Occitanie", from the CIRDOC (Center Inter-Regional de Developpement de l'Occitan) in Béziers -
http://www.geocities.com/anytarot/occitania.html

Marselha is Marseille and Avenhon is Avignon.

So, it might be technically true to say that the TdM is an Occitan creation.

[Sophie]

I stand corrected, Ross. I had always assumed Occitania to be South-West of France (because of Occitan meaning West). I have Provençal and Languedoc ancestors - I am glad to be sorted out.

I have some problems with Prof Dummett's opinion - and it is: how come so much specifically French (and in some cases Southern French) iconography ended up on the TdM if its origin is Milan?

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Helvetica (sorry I've forgotten your real name! you told me once...)

Originally Posted by Helvetica

I stand corrected, Ross. I had always assumed Occitania to be South-West of France (because of Occitan meaning West). I have Provençal and Languedoc ancestors - I am glad to be sorted out.

Lucky you! Have you visited the area? For me Provence and Cote d'Azur are the loveliest regions of France (I love the sunshine and the sea). The Languedoc's charms are not so evident on the surface, and must be coaxed out of the land and its people with patience, understanding and, above all, humor. A bottle of pastis doesn't hurt either.

As for Occitan meaning "West" - the Robert says "Occitan... medieval latin '(lingua) occitana', the latinization of '(langue) d'oc'"

I have some problems with Prof Dummett's opinion - and it is: how come so much specifically French (and in some cases Southern French) iconography ended up on the TdM if its origin is Milan?

He bases it on inferences from the order of the cards in sources from Milan and Pavia (and also Piedmont) where Temperance is 14 and the World is higher than the Angel (Judgement), and on the Cary Sheet primarily, many of whose designs are so strikingly similar to the TdM (but others are strikingly NOT). The Cary Sheet is a can of worms in my opinion, since its provenance is unknown. The engraving looks Italian, and is securely placed around 1500, but even given that, to say it is definitely from Milan is risky. But it is compelling to see it as an order C type (which includes TdM), and so suggests Lombardy.

I don't see so much specifically French or southern French in the TdM's trump designs. Some are specifically northern Italian - the Hanged Man in particular. This was an iconic image instantly recognizable in the 14th and 15th centuries in northern Italy - but even if you can find traces of it somewhere in France, or depictions of sinners being hung upside down in Hell, it is a few ripples against a tidal wave - it is impossible to ignore the importance of the image in cities like Florence, Bologna, and Milan over the course of two centuries (see Gherardo Ortalli's "La peinture infamante du XIIIe au XVIe siècle", Monfort, Paris 1994 for a full if diffuse discussion - it repays rereading and taking copious notes).

It seems to me that the designs which are not so generic as to be impossible to place (the Virtues and Judgement for example) or can be seen as natural evolution of the designs wherever the engraving was done, are pointedly Italian, at least in the 15th century.

But I haven't read through all the threads on this topic of the French-ness of the TdM (as opposed to the Italian-ness of it) to really be up to speed in talking with you.

Can you recommend a thread or two?

[le pendu]

Ross and Helvetica,

Thank you both for your informative replies.

Andy's Playing Cards agrees with Ross' thoughts on a Lombardy origin, and notes the likelihood that the pattern developed in Italy and moved to Lyons. From there it went South and North.
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards43.htm

In other words, am I fair in stating:

1. We have little to no proof that the TdM developed in Occitania.
2. Historians tend to lean towards Lombardy as the origin of the design that came to be known as TdM.
3. The earliest decks we have are from Lyons, and Paris.

best,
robert

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Robert,

Originally Posted by le pendu

In other words, am I fair in stating:

1. We have little to no proof that the TdM developed in Occitania.

I think so. However, the exact TdM order, and the complete set of designs, is not attested in any Italian source (until they began copying the French model in the 19th (or late 18th?) century). So there is room to speculate that cardmakers in Avignon or Marseille (and hence in "Occitania") changed a Lombard or Savoyard deck that was nearly identical, but not quite, into the TdM we know today. Therefore, as few as these changes would have been, the TdM in some small way could be said to have "developed in Occitania".

2. Historians tend to lean towards Lombardy as the origin of the design that came to be known as TdM.

Absolutely. Note however that people who have studied this question in detail, and are familiar with all the sources, are very few. The only ones I know to offer an opinion on the subject are Michael Dummett, Thierry Depaulis, Franco Pratesi, Jean-Claude Flornoy, Alain Bougearel, Lothar, Andy (of Andy's Playing Cards), Michael Hurst, and myself (I don't know really if Hurst would claim perfect knowledge of the question, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt) There are probably some others, but not many.

So not too many minds have pondered it, but to say they (and those who rely on them) "lean toward Lombardy" is a wholly accurate description.

3. The earliest decks we have are from Lyons, and Paris.

Yes. Catelin Geoffroy is from Lyon, 1557. Jacques Viéville is circa 1650, Paris.
Further, the earliest French rules (the earliest surviving rules anywhere) date from 1637, and they give the TdM order. They were written in Paris (IIRC).

Note that Geoffroy gives the TdM order, although his cards aren't in TdM style. Viéville's cards aren't in TdM order or style. The earliest mention of tarots in French is from Avignon, 1505 (spelled there taraux). It is impossible to say what style of tarot decks these were.

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

The earliest mention of tarots in French is from Avignon, 1505 (spelled there taraux).

Could you tell us more about this?

Mary

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

The earliest mention of tarots in French is from Avignon, 1505 (spelled there taraux). It is impossible to say what style of tarot decks these were.

You mean in Provençal/Occitan or in langue l'oïl?

Avignon is in Occitanie (Southern half of France) . And taraux is a town in the South.